Proposed A.D.M. Training Discussion

[Bundy]

Nee wat willem...iewers het jy baie erg die bus gemis!

Lees weer van vooraf en jy sal sien dat wat ek hier probeer doen is heeltemaal die teenoorgestelde van wat jy dink dit is...

If you think this course will be structured to teach you aerobatics, high risk manoevers, flying outside the envelope and pushing equipment and personal boundaries..... you will be very very disappointed I'm afraid.

Your reference to an Instructor who was killed after making a bad and impulsive decision only serves to strengthen my proposal....this course may just have saved him from himself?

[p3tr]

OK i would enjoy your course if the hotdogs are good... i would be there, but this isn't really what excites me.
what i would enjoy much more would be a night rating or something made available for microlghts
i would gladly spend another 50 hours on instruction for something like that.
what about a ridge soaring course? thermal riding course? STOL course? these little planes can do special things which we can utilise.

Nice idea though. this is where it starts, and a great idea for that.

i don't want to hijack your thread, but that has bugged me a bit for a while. people (not you) making comments about the skills level in NTCA but not wanting to do anything about it because they feel that would make it unsafe (??)

[Bundy]

OK i would enjoy your course if the hotdogs are good... i would be there, but this isn't really what excites me.
what i would enjoy much more would be a night rating or something made available for microlghts
i would gladly spend another 50 hours on instruction for something like that.
what about a ridge soaring course? thermal riding course? STOL course? these little planes can do special things which we can utilise.

Nice idea though. this is where it starts, and a great idea for that.

i don't want to hijack your thread, but that has bugged me a bit for a while. people (not you) making comments about the skills level in NTCA but not wanting to do anything about it because they feel that would make it unsafe (??)

I wouldn't hold my breath on the night rating thing p3tr. Aint gonna happen anytime soon... probably never.

Your suggestions above are specialized disciplines, best tackled on your own with a suitably qualified instructor who has experience in these. The ADM course is aimed at instilling a process in your skills base to make the least risky choices when flying...which I believe will improve our overall safety awareness and actions as recreational pilots. The key is to identify where your weaknesses lie in a "theoretical environment" and then to work on your decision making with the instructor in a tailor made course to suit your individual needs.(That's where the practical sides comes in)

As mentioned before, I will take this further through other channels. The ATO's are vital in this process if it is to become something that reaches the four corners of the country.

I appreciate all the feedback folks.

[John Boucher]

The poor judgment chain, sometimes referred to as the error chain, is a term used to describe this concept of contributing factors in a human factors related accident. Breaking one link in the chain normally is all that is necessary to change the outcome of the sequence of events. The best way to illustrate this concept to students is to discuss specific situations which lead to aircraft accidents or incidents. The following is an example of the type of scenario which can be presented to students to illustrate the poor judgment chain.

A private pilot, who had logged 100 hours of flight time, made a precautionary landing on a narrow dirt runway at a private airport. The pilot lost directional control during landing and swerved off the runway into the grass. A witness recalled later that the airplane appeared to be too high and fast on final approach, and speculated the pilot was having difficulty controlling the airplane in high winds. The weather at the time of the incident was reported as marginal VFR due to rain showers and thunderstorms, When the airplane was fueled the following morning, 60 gallons of fuel were required to fill the 62-gallon capacity tanks.

By discussing the events that led to this incident, instructors can help students understand how a series of judgmental errors contributed to the final outcome of this flight. For example, one of the first elements that affected the pilot's flight was a decision regarding the weather. On the morning of the flight, the pilot was running late, and having acquired a computer printout of the forecast the night before, he did not bother to obtain a briefing from flight service before his departure.

A flight planning decision also played a part in this poor judgment chain. The pilot calculated total fuel requirements for the trip based on a rule-of-thumb figure he had used previously for another airplane. He did not use the fuel tables printed in the pilot's operating handbook for the airplane he was flying on this trip. After reaching his destination, the pilot did not request refueling. Based on his original calculations, he believed sufficient fuel remained for the flight home.

Failing to recognize his own limitations was another factor that led the pilot one step closer to the unfortunate conclusion of his journey. In the presence of deteriorating weather, he departed for the flight home at 5:00 in the afternoon. He did not consider how fatigue and lack of extensive night flying experience could affect the flight. As the flight continued, the weather along the route grew increasingly hazardous. Since the airplane's fuel supply was almost exhausted, the pilot no longer had the option of diverting to avoid rapidly developing thunderstorms. With few alternatives left, he was forced to land at the nearest airfield available, a small private airport with one narrow dirt runway. Due to the gusty wind conditions and the pilot's limited experience, the approach and landing were difficult. After touchdown, the pilot lost directional control and the airplane finally came to a stop in the grass several yards to the side of the runway.

On numerous occasions during the flight, the pilot could have made effective decisions which may have prevented this incident. However, as the chain of events unfolded, each poor decision left him with fewer and fewer options. Teaching pilots to make sound decisions is the key to preventing accidents. Traditional pilot instruction has emphasized flying skills, knowledge of the aircraft, and familiarity with regulations. ADM training focuses on the decision-making process and the factors that affect a pilot's ability to make effective choices.

I find it strange that there is an underlying opposition to this project

[Tumbleweed]

I get the clearer picture now. My deleted response was prior to Bundy editing his topic and intro.

Interestingly, I watched a BBC medical program identifying how thorough check lists in the operating theatre elliminated impusle decisions by the leading surgeons to accomodate the team as well as handing over the patient to aftercare conforming to a structured process whereby reducing deaths in the UK theatres and hospitals by 20%, all based on passenger carrying pilot checklists.

[John.com]

The poor judgment chain, sometimes referred to as the error chain, is a term used to describe this concept of contributing factors in a human factors related accident. Breaking one link in the chain normally is all that is necessary to change the outcome of the sequence of events. The best way to illustrate this concept to students is to discuss specific situations which lead to aircraft accidents or incidents. The following is an example of the type of scenario which can be presented to students to illustrate the poor judgment chain.

A private pilot, who had logged 100 hours of flight time, made a precautionary landing on a narrow dirt runway at a private airport. The pilot lost directional control during landing and swerved off the runway into the grass. A witness recalled later that the airplane appeared to be too high and fast on final approach, and speculated the pilot was having difficulty controlling the airplane in high winds. The weather at the time of the incident was reported as marginal VFR due to rain showers and thunderstorms, When the airplane was fueled the following morning, 60 gallons of fuel were required to fill the 62-gallon capacity tanks.

By discussing the events that led to this incident, instructors can help students understand how a series of judgmental errors contributed to the final outcome of this flight. For example, one of the first elements that affected the pilot's flight was a decision regarding the weather. On the morning of the flight, the pilot was running late, and having acquired a computer printout of the forecast the night before, he did not bother to obtain a briefing from flight service before his departure.

A flight planning decision also played a part in this poor judgment chain. The pilot calculated total fuel requirements for the trip based on a rule-of-thumb figure he had used previously for another airplane. He did not use the fuel tables printed in the pilot's operating handbook for the airplane he was flying on this trip. After reaching his destination, the pilot did not request refueling. Based on his original calculations, he believed sufficient fuel remained for the flight home.

Failing to recognize his own limitations was another factor that led the pilot one step closer to the unfortunate conclusion of his journey. In the presence of deteriorating weather, he departed for the flight home at 5:00 in the afternoon. He did not consider how fatigue and lack of extensive night flying experience could affect the flight. As the flight continued, the weather along the route grew increasingly hazardous. Since the airplane's fuel supply was almost exhausted, the pilot no longer had the option of diverting to avoid rapidly developing thunderstorms. With few alternatives left, he was forced to land at the nearest airfield available, a small private airport with one narrow dirt runway. Due to the gusty wind conditions and the pilot's limited experience, the approach and landing were difficult. After touchdown, the pilot lost directional control and the airplane finally came to a stop in the grass several yards to the side of the runway.

On numerous occasions during the flight, the pilot could have made effective decisions which may have prevented this incident. However, as the chain of events unfolded, each poor decision left him with fewer and fewer options. Teaching pilots to make sound decisions is the key to preventing accidents. Traditional pilot instruction has emphasized flying skills, knowledge of the aircraft, and familiarity with regulations. ADM training focuses on the decision-making process and the factors that affect a pilot's ability to make effective choices.

I find it strange that there is an underlying opposition to this project

Agreed! Mind-Boggling!!

[leprechaun]

All good and well, some of you guys see the pie in the sky approach? Yes it may be good to get a badge with "I attended The ADM course" ... I believe not.

There are still too many undciplined pilots in this industry... I had an ap (Inspection) this weekend, where when I did the 4th tick-off on my list I condemned the wing. The Keeltube had been basically worn through where the the spreader bar crosses it. I will post the photos soon.
Bundy, you are around the corner... Come take a look. The pilot is one of the wing over gangs. I dont think he will continue with this type of flying?

The instructor whom I mentioned that killed himself had been red tagged for reckless flying... (low level , window height in Pretoria gardens) .The CFI and others tried to cover the incident , but a reputable instructor laid the charges , and ONE YEAR LATER TO THE DAY, HE WAS NO MORE!
I will definately not and I repeat not support this issue and will fight it will all the means (available to me) to ensure that our safety record is not tanished in future. Leprechaun -- FOR THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE "CHARGES" COME VISIT ME !!!

(MOD: Edited for better readibility)

[John.com]

All good and well , some of you guys see the pie in the sky aproach , yes it may be good to get a badge with I attended The ADM course , I beleive not , there are still too many undciplined pilots in this industry , I had an ap this weekend where whenI did the 4tick-off on my list I condemned the wing , The Keeltube had been basically worn through where the the spreader bar crossesit , I will post the photos soon , Bundy You are around the corner , Come take a look , The pilot is one of the wing over gangs , I dont thonk he will continue with this type of flying . Bundy The instructor whom I mentioned that killed himself had been red tagged for reckless flyinG, low level , window height in Pretoria gardens , The CFI and others tried to cover the incident , but a reputable instructor laD THE CHARGES AND , ONE YEAR LATER TO THE DAY HE WAS NO MORE , I will definately not and I repeat not support this issue and will fight it will all the means to ensure that our safety record is not tanished in future , Leprechaun -- fOR THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE CHARGES COME VISIT ME !!!

Sorry Alex, you've lost me . . . . how does your post relate to improving pilot ADM and advanced training?

To understand you, are you saying that you would NOT support this initiative to improve pilot ADM and to provide advanced training?

'Just so that I better understand you. Thanks.

[John Boucher]

ADM training focuses on the decision-making process and the factors that affect a pilot's ability to make effective choices.

This has nothing to do with being able to fly in adverse conditions or soaring the mountain waves or skimming the water or mielie fields..... IT HAS TO DO WITH THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS BEFORE YOU EVEN GET TO DO THAT (or REALLY DECIDE AGAINST DOING IT!!!!)

[Bundy]

The poor judgment chain, sometimes referred to as the error chain, is a term used to describe this concept of contributing factors in a human factors related accident. Breaking one link in the chain normally is all that is necessary to change the outcome of the sequence of events.

Thanks Leon and John....the above taken from JB's insert is exactly what this idea is intended to address.

A simple example...

Sitting with Fanie (CFI Skyriders) during an hour's dual a while back. Taxiing out to the HP doing final checks etc etc, he asked me which runway I would be using. 5 trikes were already making their way in front of us to the threshold for 09. The wind at the time was a constant 10knts straight across the main runway which is 03/21. I followed suit and joined the others for 09 take off which would put the wind firmly from the front and slightly from the right.

My turn came and I entered and lined up, final TO checks, helmets locked and about to hit the pedal....he says "Hold it here"...."What do you see in front of you?"

A: "A pivot....but we have more than enough space to clear it?"
F: "And what if the engine stops?....Can you avoid it to the left or right?
A: "Probably not"
F: "Why did you not take 03?"
A: "I felt the wind was favouring 09 for TO..."
F: "It is....but 03 has far more options in the event of an engine failure....better to take off with the cross wind?"

This is the type of thinking and decision making process that I would like this course to highlight and give us a better chain of thought to choose the best options consistently....

In response to you Alex, with respect... you completely fail to see what this proposed course is intended to do. It amazes me that you think an ADM course will promote over confidence, recklessness, poor discipline and egotistical behaviour? The very things that it is intended to eliminate...you have made your intentions clear to me over the phone so I will not try and convince you otherwise. Your support of this project was something I was truly counting on...it appears I stand alone....

[CVStrong]

Hi Bundy,

I applaud what you are trying to do with this idea, and agree that there are too many pilots out there making bad decisions... Finding out why and trying to educate people to not make those decisions Is a great concept... Certainly where I fly, the concept of making the right decisions is drilled into all of us, our CFI is making a concerted effort to get the guys in our area to interact more, so that discussions around these sorts of issues can be discussed and us younger pilots can learn from the older "wiser" crowd... I think formalising this process is a good thing for some... I think the issue at hand is people are misinterpreting what the course would entail, and what the ultimate intentions are... Perhaps reading the word advanced in the wrong way...

Our CFI often very colourfully describes how when he decides that he is not flying, there is nothing on this earth that will change that decision, this mindset though comes from having experienced the results of making the wrong decision and flying over years and years of being in the air... Those of us who he has taught are able to learn without having to feel the consequences of those decisions, although human nature will have us make the wrong decisions anyway from time to time...

I asked our CFI the other day if for those of us who are recently qualified, we could look at doing a course in "mountain flying"... with somewhere in the Drakensberg as a venue... His answer was... why do I want to go and get scared? and suggested that we get some more hours under our belts before considering such things... I think his feelings there along the same lines of not wanting to get us over confident and hence making bad decisions, much like Alex may be thinking...

The key here I think is for people to re-read your original post, and then comment, as the concept of trying to improve people's decision making process is a first rate one...

Cheers

Craig

[Bundy]

Thanks Craig, I agree that I think quite a few have been side tracked by the term "advanced training" so I am going to edit the topic heading accordingly.

I hope that once I have got more opinion on this and the way forward, that the final proposal will be better understood as I cannot believe that this will not add value to our safety and conduct as recreational pilots.

I will be taking it forward wherever that may lead.

Thank you to those who have taken the time to understand the concept.

[skybound®]

Bundy perhaps worthwhile to take a look at what Mike is doing here: http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=240

May be some scope to develop together - as the decision making being discussed is not isolated to the particular type flown.

[John Boucher]

Alan, may I suggest you create a "POLL" to test the waters.

There are those that believe that once one has developed this course material that some uber power will come along and make it a regulatory requirement.

I for one enjoy my flying and will voluntarily do a course of this nature but I am sure if promulgated, it would seriously become an issue.

[Bundy]

Alan, may I suggest you create a "POLL" to test the waters.

Perhaps you could give us a hand there JB?

I've tried twice now and I'm lost...