New regs Part 62.10

[ystervark7]

Sorry to step on some toes but I have a problem with adding more rules for so called safety. First show how many incidences happened where this would have made is safer, next show me that where test flight were done that it was safer. I do not have the numbers for this but if I have to guess based on the number of type certified planes that had incidents after a service that I hear about, this is not going to improve safety of non type certified flying (I assume that type certified planes are test flown before delivered to a client.)

Adding more rules does not make it safer, some people might just feel better about it!

[Wargames]

Adding more rules does not make it safer, some people might just feel better about it!

Exactly!! Well said. Maybe MISASA and Aeroclub must appose this as quick as possible.

[bobthebuilder]

Ok, I get the general idea. I can also see the correlation between test flying and open class ratings now.
How would one find out what maintenance is deemed to require a test flight?

[Morph]

This is exactly what Misasa is supposed to be doing for us

[Tumbleweed]

Since no one has had a go-

what if your nearest certified 'test pilot- ON TYPE' is a three hour long round trip away. Is the oke who has been servicing his trike for years, at night or in crappy weather, in the comfort of his hangar with all his tools e.t.c. now going to;

A. load his tools, oil, filters e.t.c. and fly out to a pre-arranged appointment, service his trike so that it can be test flown?
B. Delay the service interval till a more convenient time or when he sees said test pilot?
C. " Hello boet, I've serviced my trike just as we've always done, so when I see you there's a bottle of brandy for you once you've signed my logbook".

I'm sure I'm just being stupid.

[Morph]

No you're not, there are major impracticalities with this

[skybound®]

This is exactly what Misasa is supposed to be doing for us

I sent Alanmack a PM a few days ago asking him to come take a look and provide us with any input - as to whether AeCSA/MISASA did see the proposals and what the thinking behind it may be.

[wildthing]

Hi All.

The requirements for test pilot ratings have been in Part 62 since the start, all that has happened is that the requirements to obtain a rating have been clearly defined and amended to be in Sub part 10 of 62.
Currently it refers to part 61, and this in turn refers to the ANR’s which no longer exist, but still have force until Part 61 subpart 10 has been developed, this will then take effect unless we set our own requirements for this part.

What we are trying to achieve are test pilot requirements that are more in line with our needs and not ICAO or Part 61 etc.
The regulations have been developed in cooperation with MISASA, in fact most of the work and standards set where done by the MISASA Technical and Training officers.

The requirements have been reduced for our purposes and the technical standards are currently being developed.
If this is not done then the current requirements under the ANR still apply and all pilots will both lose their privileges as test pilot ratings and have to reapply to the higher standard.

For a post maintenance test pilot rating the requirements have been reduced from 500hrs flight time and 300hrs PIC to 300hrs flight time and 200hrs PIC in category, and for an initial test pilot rating from 1000hrs and 700hrs PIC to 700hrs flight time and 500hrs PIC in category.
This is a huge reduction intended to reduce the NPL requirements, but still sufficient to maintain safety standards.

It is also not meant to conduct a test flight after every inspection or service i.e. line maintenance, plugs, filters, oil etc. Nor does it apply to system acceptance or post maintenance acceptance.

The post maintenance test flight needs to be conducted by a post maintenance test pilot after major work, repairs or overhauls have been done to the aircraft, or any part thereof i.e. engine, prop, wings etc.
For first of type, or production built NTCA a rated test pilot needs to conduct the test flights prior to obtaining an ATF.
For amateur built aircraft the initial and final test flight of the proving flights needs to be conducted by a rated test pilot prior to obtaining an ATF.

We are currently developing a Test Pilot syllabus of our own to ensure that NPL holders don’t need to attend the test pilot school in the Mojave Desert or SAAF test pilots school in order to get a Top Gun SAAF Test Pilot Badge.
This syllabus is being developed with the help of a large number of NPL instructors and MISASA members with extensive experience in the various categories.

This has nothing to do with the open class rating at all.
If a pilot flying Weight shift or Conventional microlights has more than 500 hours and five or more types in that category on their licence then they can apply for an “Open Class Rating” at RAASA, this will allow them to familiarise and rate themselves on other types in the same category i.e. Weight shift or Conventional microlights only.
The required application forms and logbook entries still have to be made, by the individual applying for the rating.

NB! This does not apply to LSA or TMG categories.
The rating is also only for Pilot in Command ratings in that category, it is not for an Instructor rating.


I hope that clears up any confusion.
Regards
Pierre

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Thanks P....

[skybound®]

Seems reasonable enough.

Wildthing is there any progress on the owner maintenance relaxation that was meant to be given last year? According to safety link newsletter from CAA last November - the commish pointed out that owner maintenance is not allowed.

Colin Jordaan wrote:Regarding aircraft safety, it is regrettable that some members of the
flying fraternity still believe that they can perform maintenance on
aircraft themselves, without the required approvals.

[skybound®]

It is also not meant to conduct a test flight after every inspection or service i.e. line maintenance, plugs, filters, oil etc. Nor does it apply to system acceptance or post maintenance acceptance.

The post maintenance test flight needs to be conducted by a post maintenance test pilot after major work, repairs or overhauls have been done to the aircraft, or any part thereof i.e. engine, prop, wings etc.

Pierre been reading through the proposal again and what is gazetted. IMHO it does not quite tie up to your intents:
Part 62.10.1 (4) C defines post maintenance test flight required for confirming release to service following REGULAR maintenance.

Am I not interpreting it correctly or has it been worded incorrectly? Line maintenance could be construed as being regular? A small word can make a big difference - but perhaps I am being pedantic - but would rather say something than not and end up in the dwang later.

[alanmack]

I got a nudge on this topic a little while ago. Eish - why are you all so relaxed about it?

I have been waiting to get news on the work that we are doing before responding. Deon Kraidy is handling it with the CAA and well, we are trying to remain friendly with other stakeholders on this matter. This is a time bomb! But then, this is my opinion and please note that I am no expert - it is just the view of an everyday pilot.

Have a look at the MISASA topic on what we do for you - it is the last category on the forum - sounds melodramatic but anyway it is where we get to chirp on the forum on MISASA matters.

Quite simply this is a matter that could empty your pockets. How much does it already cost to get your paperwork in order to fly? You may this year have paid the following:

Annual inspection 600.00, Flight test 210.00, Fuel (flight test 55.00), ICASA 380.00, a few back years to keep ICASA happy 'cos they are catching up say (2008/9/10) 144.00, RAASA MPL 24 months 520.00, RAASA ATF 100.00, RAASA Speedpost 2x130.00, Passport photo 35.00, MISASA 250.00, Aero Club 250.00, Flight folio 190.00, Medical 700.0O

Do the maths > that's over R3,500 even without a calculator and before 3rd party insurance, normal plane insurance, routine maintenance ..... you know it all but are you prepared for the number doubling ... that is .... if you are very , very lucky?

Mmm... now, it seems, you are all calm about paying for your AP to test fly your plane! His insurance to test fly will cost an arm and a leg and do you really believe that they will fly your plane without it being insured. Next take a few hours of your time and use it to chat to General Des Barker at the CSIR who is Chairman of the Test Pilots Association. Firstly he has a truly tough reputation but in my opinion he is a highly experienced and level headed man that will never agree to someone being any kind of test pilot with the kind of Pooh Pooh levels of experience being bandied about. The solution is not easy test pilot certification - the solution is - NTCA freedom to fly - less rules - less bureaucrats etc All this will just mean more meetings that we must attend. Do you know that it is not uncommon for a test pilot to ask for about 10% of the company to test fly a new plane! Let me tell you, you can stack thousands on to the R3,500 number quoted above to get past the telephone call never mind the rest.

I apologise for not offering comfort - please eMail Deon if you want to help him with this matter - he has to travel from Hoedspruit to attend meetings and could really do with some Jhb local help. his email is deon@lefssa.com

Fly safe
Alan

[John Young]

Annual inspection 600.00, Flight test 210.00, Fuel (flight test 55.00), ICASA 380.00, a few back years to keep ICASA happy 'cos they are catching up say (2008/9/10) 144.00, RAASA MPL 24 months 520.00, RAASA ATF 100.00, RAASA Speedpost 2x130.00, Passport photo 35.00, MISASA 250.00, Aero Club 250.00, Flight folio 190.00, Medical 700.0O

Do the maths > that's over R3,500 even without a calculator and before 3rd party insurance, normal plane insurance, routine maintenance ..... you know it all but are you prepared for the number doubling ... that is .... if you are very , very lucky?

- the solution is - NTCA freedom to fly - less rules - less bureaucrats etc.

Hi,

Unfortunately Alan is spot on.

My "epic journey" to renew my MPL and ATF started on 5 April and resulted in -

32 pages of application to RAASA
9 pages of application to ICASA
3 pages of application to Aero Club

This excludes numerous emails.

I am expecting to receive my MPL and ATF this morning.

All this for the small stuff we fly and now the bureaucrats are trying to make it even more complicated and expensive.

Regards
John ZU-sEXY

[John Young]

Hi,

I am surprised at what seems like tacit concurrence from most at this bureaucracy "gone mad".

I have four objections, viz.

1. Flight folio - It is onerous and I fail to see what value it can add to the small stuff we fly.

2. Flight test regardless of total time, time on type and hours flown last 12 months. This is flawed in that it is not capped.

3. Test flight after every service / routine maintenance - this is just so impractical.

4. Possibly no more owner supervised maintenance.

MISASA - you have your work cut out. Good luck and go toe-to-toe if necessary.

Regards
John ZU-sEXY

[skybound®]

4. Possibly no more owner supervised maintenance.

Not possibly - it has been out since 2008. Owner only allowed if supervised by AP/AME as things stand now.