Why should we go?-why should we stay?

[Massimo]

Yes Aero and then you move again and again and before you know it another 30 good years have gone by And by then maybe things have changed and moving is no longer an option.

Lets all please remember that just like we think that SA is the best country in the world, the americans, french, brazilian, australians etc etc think the same about their country.

So its a mind set. Human beings are very adaptable and i agree with Dre that if you go over make it a 100% done deal. Decision made and when you get there you focus 150% on building your new life. If you still have only 1 foot in the door then 3 years later you will be just another statistic and be back in SA. The only reason for coming back here will be for african holidays.

The grass is greener saying i personally think is k@k, its about how you tackle the issue at hand that makes all the difference.

[Dirk van Dort]

It is as the man says, ultimately, your choice. me, for the moment, because I still have a good life, live in a small town in the country, will stay, but.....some years ago my son and my daughter emigrated to New Zealand and we visit them at least once a year. What a pleasure, nice homes, unfenced, no burglar bars, and my grandchildren can cycle and walk around safely. sure, they do their own housework, but what an opportunity to teach the kids the responsibilities of life, to pitch in and help. Your tax dollars work for you, you get back so much more, the parks are clean, the roads good, hospitals are places you can get better in. Braai's, biltong, sunshine, beaches, mountains, they have it all, they speak my language, even afrikaans, there are so many south africans over there, invariably you team up with them. When we are there, we see a s.a. doctor, a s.a dentist, but have met so many friendly laid back kiwi's, and lets face it, they play the best rugby........trophy or not.....
no sir, i love this country, its bushveld and easy life, but i hate the tension, the nervousnous, the danger, the need to keep looking over your shoulder and locking up tight at night, the incompetence of the powers, the arrogance, need i go on, oh, and the best of all, My Bantam microlight....i can even fly it there, hell man, they build them in NZ.
So, the moment we have no immediate ties here, (still some elderly family) i will be off to join my kids and grandkids, safely securely and efficiently.
Dirk
ZU-DIG

[rainier]

I had an opportunity to look at New Zealand but wife insisted we go over and check it out first, R48k just for return tickets for the 3 of us. Will have to win the lotto first unfortunately. It is diffucult, I look at things from all points of view. But like I said no one can make the decision for you. Only thing is if you decide to go you have to go with the mindset of accepting the change and don't look back. Until then do what you can to make as difference.

We did go for a "look/see" December 2006, Ria and myself.
What we found is a beautifull country, clean and reasonably safe. What shocked us in some places where signs advertising to watch your stuff and beware that your car might get broken into if you park here. Also, unexpected where a lot of ADT signs in many places. Crime, mostly in city centers and some "no go" zones definitely unexpectedly high and when we were there we saw the newspaper headlines of an arms cache found that would make any of our own look a tad outdated.

Weather is another story - middle of summer and we where freezing our butts off with only a rare glimpse of sun and lots of rain - we traveled the entire country north and south island.

Economy has a weird kind of "depressed" feeling around it - I could not shake the impression or explain it properly, perhaps it's due to taking socialism a little too far ?
Towns for the most part have a very English feel to them - one could argue that it feels more English than the U.K.

People were exceptionaly friendly whereever we went and did not take the "Seffrican" as a bad thing - like you get in Oz.

I have been fortunate to travel many places and have seen many countries of the beaten track and staying a while in some of them.

If I where to only include the English speaking favourite destinations, here is my biased and rude optinion:

Canada: Good economy but very socialist so not suitable for a small time entrepreneur unless you love red tape. People are great, country is nice. Find a job before you go. Weather sucks big time and so do the mozzies.
If you need sun, go somewhere else.

U.S.:
All that needs to be said has been said in a previous post. I would like to add that it is still a good place to "make it" if you have the energy.

U.K.:
Lovely but wet. Most British are harmless but avoid those from Liverpool unless they sing. Good place to earn money but you have to spend it somewhere else to make it last. The strawberries are from South Africa.

Oz:
Good comments on the thread already. Of note is that of the seven friends/family groups I know that emigrated there over the years 6 are back in S.A. Verdict: Look poor, blend in, tie corks around the hat and you will be fine. Leave the green/gold T-Shirt at home.

NZ:
Different to all of the above: If I would have to move, I'd probably go there and find myself a place in the bay of plenty (I saw a biltong stand next to the road). Weather seems the most bearable there. Forget big business or even "making money". If you can retire this is an option if you can't, you may not like it.

Which brings me back to S.A:
Still the best place of all - but get out of the crime ridden areas as much as you can, it's not a lot of fun having to watch one's back all the time.

Rainier
Staying as long as I can...

[Aerosan]

Can you guys see why Im so confused

[Dre'man]

Yip Rainier almost has me homesick for NZ

[Cloud Warrior]

I obviously live in a different Oz?

I have been welcomed every where I have been so far in Oz and have found Australians to be very sympathetic towards the plight of ex-Saffers and Zims.

Yes - most Aussies are very casual (poor?) when it comes to dress sense but I actually like the fact that shorts, a t-shirt and slops are deemed to be "smart casual" over here. 30 degree+ heat in summer does not make suit wearing very practical. Also most of them don't care if you are poor or wealthy, what car you drive, how big your house or how small your cell phone is or what school you went to. If you are lucky enough to be rich well then "good on yer" - everybody just gets on with life as best they can and enjoys it as much as possible. They are materialistic but they don't flaunt it.

Yes - Aussies don't like losing. Who doesn't. Have you ever met a Bok supporter that believes we deserved to lose a game or that our boys weren't good enough? I think the will to win is one of the Aussies real strengths and why a country with such a relatively small population does so well on the sporting fields (and in other spheres of life)of the world. They are a "winning nation" and it is really refreshing to be surrounded by people that are all striving to be eagles instead of a bunch of turkeys that want to drag you down into mediocrity.

As South Africans we have nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to performance in the work place - I am really enjoying working in a first world economy and pitting my skills against first world competition. I had real concerns when I first got here that I would really have to pull finger at work. There was nothing to be worried about. If anything, working in the corporate world in SA prepared me really well for work over here. All you have to do is your job in Oz - no AA, EE, BEE and all that other unproductive crap to deal with which takes up 90% of your time in SA.

The Aussies like us because we are generally hard working, intelligent, loyal, adaptive & innovative. We have agricultural & technical skills that they need. We have a similar cultural heritage. We look like them, we speak English and have the same values and morals. So we fit is easily and blend in quickly. It takes a bit of time for them to suss you out so don't expect to have the responsibility that you had back in SA right away but then who cares, they still pay you well during that period.

And you don't have to worry about being retrenched and not being able to find a job again like you would as a pale male in SA. When I decided to leave my first employer over here at the end of last year, I had five firm job offers within two weeks.

As I have said before I have only met one guy that wanted to go back to his house in Clovelly in the Cape (who wouldn't) but he still works over here. His family doesn't want to go back. All the other Saffers I know are thriving over here and have settled in very well.

But as other people have said before on this topic it boils down to the individual. We are a very close knit family and basically wherever they are is home for me. I am a fairly introverted indvidual so my immediate family is all I really need to feel comfortable in a new environment (and my trike of course). And careers in the SADF/SANDF and De Beers got us used to the idea of moving our household around the world every couple of years.

If you are a very social person that likes and needs the company of old & good friends or if you are very close to extended family then yes you would go through a lot of pain to build up that kind of support structure again over here.

What makes the pain (anybody that says it is easy to leave your country of birth is lying) easier to bear is that it will only be our generation that has to endure it - my kids will never have to feel it. They will grow up as Aussies and will have all the opportunities in the world.

[John Boucher]

Well put Cloud Warrior...

...... and is it not just awesome to support a team that has been picked on merit and performance (and not skin colour plastic surgery!)

[wingnut]

I agree with all the positive comments about Australia. I live in the Australia that Cloud Warrior describes (although I am thousands of kilometres away from him on the east coast). I have also lived in England for two years and have found Australia much more to my liking.

We have found the people here VERY friendly, trusting and welcoming. The lifestyle is very similar to South Africa. Before we left South Africa, our brains said it's the right thing to do but our hearts felt sad. Now after being here a while I know we made the right decision. I have NO doubts and sleep peacefully at night.

As another point to consider, bear in mind that if you don't emmigrate, the chances that your children will do so are very high. Your children are much less likely to emmigrate out of a 'good' country.

I feel extremely lucky and blessed that we have had the opportunity to come here, many people are 'trapped' in South Africa and I feel sorry for those that want to emmigrate, but can't.

Everybody must decide for himself, but I can honestly say that I think it is best to emmigrate to a first world country as soon as you can.

Good luck, I know what it is like to wonder about this!
Werner Fourie

[andreb]

Hi San

We decided som years ago to go to Oz. Got our permanent residence visas last year and we are moving in Nov 2008. Busy making all arrangements now.

We did di LSD (Look, See, Decide) trip in Dec and loved Oz. The people who think that South Africa has better beaches, nature, etc are dreaming and have never been to Oz. They have the same and better and on a bigger scale. the people are great and welcoming to South Africans. Much more so than we have been to immigrants to South Africa.

The Aussies dont all whine. In fact I have heard very few whine about anything, except politics. They live a similar lifestyle to us and love similar things. I greq up in Durban in 60's and 70's and the freedom is Oz is much like the freedom we had as kids in suburban Durban. We could roam the streets and hitchhike everywhere. SAFELY. On our Dec trip we allowed my 10 year son to walk to the local fish and chip shop at 8pm to buy us dinner. UNHEARD OF IN SA!!!

There is crime everywhere, but not violent like is SA (and rest of Africa).
In my honest opinion, the people that all badmouth Oz are either too lazy to make the effort to migrate or they cannot for some reason. Do not be naive about staying to make a difference in SA. We are too few and democracy is too young. Politics is still about black and white here and it will never change. We may belive we are Africna ad our blood is here, but as whites we are hated and not welcome on this violent continent. Don't fool ourselves for one minute that this is different. This country is only one crisis from going off the rails. Just look at Kenya, which was a stable country for many years.

I could go on and on and on. I love Africa and my blood is here as well. I lost many friends over the years fighting against the "rooi gevaar" and where did that get us? I am not shedding any blood in this country and will not allow my family's to be spilt. My wife and son have ben hijacked once and were "lucky" to get away relatively unscathed.

GO SAN GO!!!

PS - Werner, PM me your email address please.

[John Boucher]

Hi there Wingnut

I have friends living in Brisbane, ironically his surname is the same as yours.... Armand & Lezel Fourie - they are both pharmacists...

Any chance you might know them ?

[wingnut]

andre and john : you have PM

[Tumbleweed]

The reason for my delayed contribution is because my mind changes daily

Friday I was p$ssed off. I'm in retail and service delivery in this country has slid off the chart. Stock shortage from the dairy, coke, meat, dishwashing soap, easter egg, change shortage from the bank e.t.c. e.t.c and the country closes on Fridays at 12h00. C'mon, we don't all face east at 12h00.

That said, instead of accepting the lies, I climb on the phone and hound them and guess what; to almost all of my queeries, it's not all BEE and affirmative action, it's no truck, no label, no box, generally just a new culture of complacency and incompetance.

How lekker was it to tell the white national sales director of a blue chip company" I'm so embarrassed coz I thought the inefficiencies in your organization is because of empowerment policies, but I'm wrong' you've been using that excuse but the fu#$ups and responsibilities lie with YUO"

Saturday my all time fix - my kid's sport. Mingling on the side of the field I hear" Die affirmative houtkoppe in ons span trek net die standaard af"
End of the game, these okes who only just started playing rugby but are all provincial hockey players, now rugby heroes and first name terms with the 'habana' crowd.

So today Sunday. I'm thinking; should i fly - seriously nice airfield 5 minutes away (life's good, trike paid off, own hangar, will pay annual rent when the council figures out how much) or should I go sail (10 minutes away on my halcat yaght, (paid R3500.00) stay over at my log cabin (cost my only fifteen grand) for which I pay annuual rent of R1.50 per day and braai quality real meat for less than R20 per person. I have a few girl -guides over for the weekend to experience camping under the stars, canoeing and riding bikes for 10 kms which they can't do in Pretoria.

So from next week, will I reconsider the offer to sell up and re-establish similar in Australia? Work my arse off, devalue the assets up to a third or just see whether this new generation of 14 year old pre-model C schools kids are going to challenge the current incompetance and complacency.

I hope they see what damages BEE can do, they can see frigates over powerstations and soccer world cups over decent public service is bullshit.

Everone says we need to make a difference or do something so,

To improve on 10 % still providing for 90 %, we need to nurture the entreprenuers with pro-active government and councils, which does not mean selling Iscor and Telcom, but creating and giving assistance to industrialists.

WE are not unpatiotic if we bitch, but we are if we do.

If it's closed when it should be open, confront them. If we say "they're incompetant coz they're BEE", then confront the bastard who employed them. I'm not looking to expand on my short Xmas list.

Trace the local councillar in your area -even better the MP and give them hell. They wanted the job, they're getting paid big bucks and just maybe they were'nt aware of the problem.

And lets be a bit like the Italians, Greeks, Portugease and muslems and rather source out and support from our own. Support the like minded stress- filled insecure butcher, broker, car dealer, service station, tyre supplier, supermarket, restaurants and sport shop to collectively improve out lot.

Now, lets scew up the day by reading the Sunday Times and watching Carte Blanche.

[grostek]

Hi Tumbleweed,

I like your attitude "I dont have ulcers, I give ulcers"

That is by far the most positive posting I have read about SA in a long time.

I especially like your idea of co-operation as a group.

It is also true ,as you point out, that for every large company having service problems, there is an oportunity for someone that is prepared to see them as such.

Kind regards,

Gunter Rostek.

[Aerosan]

Guys, I SEE the good in the country but just like those times when you know you shouldn't take off, that gut feel something is going to go pear shaped, that is how I feel about the country. I'm now half and half and wondering if Im not just delaying the inevitable.....

[John Boucher]

BINGO FUEL...... PONR.....

I think it is time to go.... There are serious discrepencies and irregularities facing this country and the dark Green ones are not going to sort it out!

The building industry is in chaos (as is most industries where BEE is being enforced), unemployment is going to rise and with that - CRIME

A bleek picture is unfolding!

I sound so negative...