Microlight over JHB CBD this morning

Matters of general interest
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Aerosan
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Postby Aerosan » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:50 pm

t-bird that is some interesting stats :!:

I still say that I will not knowingly kill myself and therefore make the best decition at all times regarding the flight safety of my aircraft. I have seen the workmanship on a "serviced" aircraft flown a Piper Colt just after it`s been for the old yearly once over and the front crank seal poped out half way to Rustenburg!! went back to the AMO straight away and he called the appie who in turned called the assistend and continued to say to him" but I told you you must do so and so......"


scary shit :!: but true.................
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Re: re

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:00 pm

Comments below....
t-bird wrote:Is it not unconstitutional if proven that zs-aircraft is not safer over built up areas than zu-aircraft.

It is easy to proof – accident history, aircraft weight, complexity of aircraft etc.
Will take time and huge cash. Remember also that most of the big iron (Jumbo's, Air busses etc are also ZS and thus the hrs without incident are actually far higher for ZS than ZU...
t-bird wrote: Then add a compromise – only 4 strokes with a TBO of at least 1000 hours
The PIC should have at least 200 hours
The aircraft should have a minimum of 80 hours before the flying over built up.
At least 10 of the type should be flying in RSA
Who will check this?
How do you track TBO hrs, hrs of aircraft and or PIC. ATC does not even know (if pilot has IF rating and as far as I know are not even allowed to ask). If you fly from a pvt strip you never need to talk to anyone in "control" so how is the above any different to what the current situation is. You fly and it only illegal if you are caught?
Why must there be 10 of type in SA flying?
t-bird wrote: New ZU registration in July SA Flyer 33 Aircraft
New ZS registration in July SA Flyer 29 Aircraft
Deleted ZU Deleted ZS 10 Aircraft
NTCA aircraft (mainly due to lower capital cost) are outnumbering TCA aircraft by some margin. This was mainly trikes in the past, but there has been a move towards more 3 axis and gyro's. This is the point I am making. NTCA will soon be if it is not already bigger than TCA, but the classification they use is if it not TCA then it NTCA and falls under blanket legislation...
t-bird wrote: Zs accidents per DJ 10 – fatalities 2
Zu accidents per DJ 3 - fatalities 0

Per the stats the ZU aircraft are overtaking the ZS aircraft.
The ZS aircraft are leading the number of accidents
These are only DJ&A policies. Many NTCA are not insurred and many "incidents" are not reported...
t-bird wrote: Why not get all the ZU aircraft owners involved and take them to the constitutional court ?
Until more pilots (aircraft owners) get involved in their already established representative bodies the situation will not change. MISASA/Aeroclub etc can not "fight" this without majority support of CAA will not take them seriously.... Apathy is free flight's biggest enemy in SA....

Join Misasa (en mass, 1 or 2 are not going to make a huge difference) and then use the common voice as a mouth piece....

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re

Postby t-bird » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:46 pm

RV Wrote :Will take time and huge cash. Remember also that most of the big iron (Jumbo's, Air busses etc are also ZS and thus the hrs without incident are actually far higher for ZS than ZU...

Why not split it per weight category if you compare Jumbo’s to ZS in Cessna and Robinson category not one of the Robby’s or Cessna will be allowed over build up areas. Compare apples to apples.

Rv Wrote : Who will check this?
How do you track TBO hrs, hrs of aircraft and or PIC. ATC does not even know (if pilot has IF rating and as far as I know are not even allowed to ask). If you fly from a pvt strip you never need to talk to anyone in "control" so how is the above any different to what the current situation is. You fly and it only illegal if you are caught?


You don’t have to track the TBO. A new engine just need to last for 1000 hours. This will indicate the reliability of the engine.
PIC – You don’t have to track it. But if you fly without having 200 hours then it is an offence. Nobody has ever checked my license to see if I am rated on the types I am flying. But when the dark stuff hits the fan they will check.

RV Wrote: Why must there be 10 of type in SA flying ?
This will give CAA some idea of the reliance of the plane. I know of 2 types of gyrocopters in South Africa that has been here for 3 years. Not more than 2 of them in the air and both in accidents.

RV Wrote : NTCA aircraft (mainly due to lower capital cost) are outnumbering TCA aircraft by some margin. This was mainly trikes in the past, but there has been a move towards more 3 axis and gyro's. This is the point I am making. NTCA will soon be if it is not already bigger than TCA, but the classification they use is if it not TCA then it NTCA and falls under blanket legislation...

Only 2 new trike registrations per the SA Flyers

RV Wrote : These are only DJ&A policies. Many NTCA are not insurred and many "incidents" are not reported...

Ok then how many people died in crashes during the year. I am almost certain that the R22’s will take that prize.

RV Wrote : Until more pilots (aircraft owners) get involved in their already established representative bodies the situation will not change. MISASA/Aeroclub etc can not "fight" this without majority support of CAA will not take them seriously.... Apathy is free flight's biggest enemy in SA....

Join Misasa (en mass, 1 or 2 are not going to make a huge difference) and then use the common voice as a mouth piece....

They don’t do enough. We need to lobby against CAA like the transponder issue. Send faxes etc. If we don’t we will lose our airspace.
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Re: re

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:23 pm

t-bird wrote:Why not split it per weight category if you compare Jumbo’s to ZS in Cessna and Robinson category not one of the Robby’s or Cessna will be allowed over build up areas. Compare apples to apples.
They do not do it here (Split), but they do, do it in USA and experimentals (NTCA here) incidents are far higher...
t-bird wrote: You don’t have to track the TBO. A new engine just need to last for 1000 hours. This will indicate the reliability of the engine.
PIC – You don’t have to track it. But if you fly without having 200 hours then it is an offence. Nobody has ever checked my license to see if I am rated on the types I am flying. But when the dark stuff hits the fan they will check.
I don't follow the TBO statement above?
PIC - can not limit the ATF of the plane... Maybe similar to IF rating, but then would need additional training? Not practical as the pilot flying over the CBD does not really affect the "risk". The fear is the aerie will "fail" vs the pilot. They check the types you fly every year you renew your license and new part 61/2 will make currency on those types also an issue.... Ask willie what happens when they "suspect" you flying without having a type on your license...
t-bird wrote: This will give CAA some idea of the reliance of the plane. I know of 2 types of gyrocopters in South Africa that has been here for 3 years. Not more than 2 of them in the air and both in accidents.
Again I think not practical. If there only 1 cirrus jet in SA for eg it not allowed to fly over CBD? (Remember it is blanket legislation which I am contending is the major problem...) The eg you mention (Gyro's) will be known to CAA and they will/should regulate it. Again a problem for CAA as they have limited resources so they rather ban all gyro's (NTCA).
t-bird wrote: Only 2 new trike registrations per the SA Flyers
That why I said in past. Look back at last 10 years. Some months there were 5-8 solo wings offerings alone. Under correction I am told that more than half the NTCA aeries on the register are trikes....
t-bird wrote: RV Wrote : These are only DJ&A policies. Many NTCA are not insurred and many "incidents" are not reported...

Ok then how many people died in crashes during the year. I am almost certain that the R22’s will take that prize.
R22 is used in "high risk" environment - training and game capture. If they were falling into suburbs every day they would be grounded... There have been a couple Robbies down lately, but given the flight hrs per incident in the environment they operate these stats are quiet good... Heli's have in the past been allowed in areas where others are restricted due to their ability to hover and autorotate. Although Gyro's are in constant autorotation, you stated that almost all gyro incidents are take off/landing related, thus is the risk of it all going pear shaped during a problem (resulting in a forced lob) over built up area higher for a gyro than for R22? Certified helicopters are used in commercial category and are certified requiring flight to built up area's. Gyro's are not certified and thus can not be used for commercial purposes at the moment... This may change in the future with commercial ML licenses and I look forward to how CAA handle that. Hypothetically speaking if a trike can tow a banner what would the point be of being able to tow it over uninhabited (non built up) area...
t-bird wrote: They don’t do enough. We need to lobby against CAA like the transponder issue. Send faxes etc. If we don’t we will lose our airspace.
The representative organisations (Aero club, EAA, SAPFA, MISASA I know of) did most of the work during the TX issue as well as the lowering of the TMA and "open space" issues. AWSA is also on the prowl and it a free "service". Representativebodies (Misasa in this case) can not do anything unless they represent the majority of the pilots that category (microlight) in SA. Check membership numbers vs licensed pilots. Less than 30% I think.... In USA the EAA, APOA have serious bite and FAA listens when they talk. Not so here and it simply as a result of a lack of numbers. Assume MISASA has 30% representation. Who is representing the other 70%. If CAA turned around today and said they would allow flight over built up area's but need 75% voice from NTCA to make any changes how are you going to do it.... Representative bodies are the only way. It a thankless & very hard job and they need our support, even if they do nothing, because when it hit's the fan they are in the position to QUICKLY react provided they have the support. What they have at the moment is not support....:? :? :?

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Postby t-bird » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:55 pm

So Rv what is your plan action?
I was a member of Misasa and now Sagpa , but if these organizations don’t have any teeth due to a lack of support I will not renew it.

I will try and side step build up areas where possible.

My problem is if you have an engine out over a built up area and your policy don’t want to pay out and they sue your estate.

Will RAFSA have more power than the aeroclub?

Or is it just another money making organization ?
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:35 pm

Problem is if you don't join they will have even less support...

I don't know what RAFSA is all about. Some swear it will solve all the problems, but some (specifically the SSA) are not happy about it.

Me.... I do what I can.
I belong to Aero club, EAA, SAPFA, Misasa, APOA & FIA.... Try to help where I can, try to promote joining a representative body and shout and scream when required to drum up support.... Share your experiences and enjoy it. If you are having fun it makes "fighting" easier... If you are not willing to do anything don't moan.....

What you do is up to you, but IMHO apathy will kill all sorts of aviation in SA. 20/30 years ago the blik (PPL) boys were, where micro's are today in terms of the social fun factor (Fly inn's, rally's, fly aways, hangar talk etc) and every dorp had a flying club. Now they have the same hangars with the same aeries rusting away without a club to be seen. Where will ML's be in 20 years..... Only pilots like you and me with a vested interest can make a difference.....
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Re: re

Postby skybound® » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:33 pm

t-bird wrote:...don’t have any teeth due to a lack of support I will not renew it.
Now imagine where we would be today if that one guy did not take that leap of faith and buy the first fax machine.

Have to have faith that if you buy into it - that someday it will work.

The guy who bought the first fax machine did it based on faith that one day someone else would buy one, so he could fax them.

:lol: :lol: :wink:

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