Flying KWK

[Fairy Flycatcher]

On our short short-notice trip over the last couple of days, skygod and I had the pleasure of flying Demon's KWK.

We only did about 10min each, but it was more than enough to fall in love.

First Demon did an awesome display for us, and what impressed me most was how effective the ram-air system was in changing the aerofoil shape of the wing at higher speeds. You could actually see the shape change at different speeds The roll-rate was second to that... very, very impressive :D

David tried it out first, and it was nice to see him play gently for a while, getting a feel for it.

I was a bit nervous taking it up, as Demon convinced me I was jinxed. About a year ago, for those of you who have forgotten, he left me with a short list of instructions, the keys to his trike and a full tank. I left his trike at Cross-Winds, after the entire electric system (which include the avionics), decided to quit on me. Battery dead, digital instrument flat.

When we arrived at Rietfontein this time around, we found Demon with some dodgy-looking wires running from his car to his aircraft battery in a rather dodgy way. He promptly told me that this is my fault Nothing helped though, battery had transferred its last bit of current on this earth, and no amount of "jumping" helped. Trying to prop-swing that 4-stroke is also a bit of dog, so Demon decided to "borrow" a battery from his friend Ratman, who will "not come to fly for a while, I'll replace it by then" As usual, Murphy was hard at work, and who should arrive about 20min later... Ratman At least he wanted to fly his other plane :D

It was most entertaining to watch skygod and Demon swop batteries. A lot of tools went into it, a lot of cursing, and a lot of complaints about what "maturity" (yeah right - never those two), can do to your eye-sight.

Anyway, it was finally my turn to take KWK up for a flight. Amazing! For a long time I have maintained that trikes seem to sacrifice safety for speed, and that you end up with a number of designs which are too light in the pitch and heavy in the roll. Real dogs to fly in turbulence, as the bar keeps hitting you in the chest, and it almost feels as if the wing wants to tuck...

Not KWK, not by a long shot... everything I would like to see in a modern trike. It is light in the roll, firm in the pitch, and glides like an old 18m2 windlass. I even thermalled it, and it was amazing.

She floats incredibly well, with lots of round-out authority, and you have no loss of controll as she slows down...

Well done on a great buy Demon, even if the speed-range was not that amazing, it would still rate as one of the nicest (and most comfortable) trikes I have ever flown.

I hope to see a lot more of these in SA, its going to change the way we feel about triking.

[Tumbleweed]

Nice review.

Now that enough people of authority have test driven Demon's demo, is it not time that these and other pre-selected, unbiast pro's give us a showdown?

Maybe a brand comparison during different phases of flying and rating?

Then let the 'test pilots' show instructor / agent credentials to allow us mortals decide if biast or not.

Would be nice to know if, or far the local trikes lag behind and if the diff justifies the cost. So far, appears day and night.

I'm sure there's more than one with a serious itch

[slysi]

Good idea! Would be a useful comparison, especially for those of us considering buying a trike. Is local lekker? What are the pros and cons of buying local vs. say a Manair etc.

[Hotdog]

I would also be interested in a comparative discussion.

[Big-D]

Good topic

I want to know too

Which is better

1. Aerotrike/Aquila body + 582 + Aerossa Topless wing (all new) +-R160000

2. Second hand pegasus Quantum +-R150 000

My priorities when it come to trikes

1. Safety
2. Nice feel
3. Handle bumps well
4. Be able to handle heavy payloads easy
5. BLING!! It must look cool

[Fairy Flycatcher]

I don't think that you will find an honest comparisson.

I have flown many different types, and it is my opinion that many of the newer local designs are becoming less safe, and battles in turbulence. But for me to name types here, will cause me a lot of head-aches in the industry, and if I am honest enough, might cause a libel suit or two

Don't ask people to post anything here, the info will be close to worthless to anyone who needs valuable information.

Best is this: go to different clubs / airfields, meet different students. Those flying in wind and bumps, see what types they fly. See who trained them.

Those scared of a couple of bumps (including instructors), see what they fly, and see who trained them. You will see a trend emerge very quickly.

Also see who fly long distance, and who stick to the turkey patch.

There are always exceptions, but what you learn from an exercise like that will be invaluable. It is not about popular types. That is all in the marketing and instructor's commision.

You get to the crux of the matter when you look at when it flies, where it flies and who flies it.

[Big-D]

Hi FF

I have done these things you speak of - observe etc and I am still confused.

Yip, planes make people emotional and we probably will not get honest answers without some toe stepping.

I have the solution. No need to bad mouth any plane by answering the following question.

You currently fly Safari(s) 582 - What trike will you be buying next?

[Miskiet]

I buy CAR magazine specifically because they don't pull punches - if a car is rubbish they tell you (Topgear on DSTV is very good too!).

Bottom line is that if someone like David or FF (whom we all respect) test flies a trike and gives a write up about it, it will carry a lot of weight with the current pilots out there. The suppliers with bad products out there of course would not like this at all......

Because nothing like this exists in our industry we have to go on what agents tell us. Anyone who bought a particularly bad trike is also unlikely to admit he's made a mistake..... There is definetely room for an "airtest" section in Microflight or Afskies (Are they scared because trike manufacturer's advertise in them?)

Best bet is to go fly the plane yourself. Once you've flown two or three different ones you should get a good idea about which one flies better.

[Tumbleweed]

Now, see, that's being politically correct and just ducking controversy.

There's no way that anyone can base an honest opinion by asking a strange instructor whether he's scared of bumps or training in bumps, or whether he'l let you test his range of trikes.

I agree that many opinions will be biasted, coz I was disturbed to hear that (some) instructor's get offered comm for a sale. That clearly dilutes an honest relationship with the student who's taking the oke's opinion as gospel coz his life is in his hands.

Now, without being held for libel for saying " I think XXX is kak", try again with;

" I have flown many different types, and it is my opinion that many of the newer local designs are becoming less safe, and battles in turbulence. But for me to name types here, I would choose XXX for long distance, YYY for turbulance, ZZZ for serious crosswinds ........... .etc"

Then follow with;

" My personal first choice out of our fleet would be XXX because ....."

" But if I had could buy any trike I wanted, I would get because ....."

" If I had a 600 hour trike deserving some attention, I would replace the wing with a ........., because .........."

Come now, be a sport we're on you side.

[John Young]

Best is this: go to different clubs / airfields, meet different students. Those flying in wind and bumps, see what types they fly. See who trained them.

Those scared of a couple of bumps (including instructors), see what they fly, and see who trained them. You will see a trend emerge very quickly.

Also see who fly long distance, and who stick to the turkey patch.

Quite honestly, I don’t see how an inexperienced pilot will be able to formulate an intelligent answer using this method. How the heck will he be able to determine any sort of benchmark?

Surely, it makes more sense to simplify down to the following: -

1. Personal budget [Windlass from R 40 000 up to 912 at +R 300 000]
2. Back-up and support [my Aquilla Manufacturer is down the road from me – this is very lekker and the personal service is outstanding]
3. Investigate the “broker” that you are dealing with – bad reputations “fly fast” – ask about this person at neighbouring airfields as well.
4. Avoid exotic imported one-off specials until you are experienced. Buy a popular trike – good advice and assistance is then always easier to get [there are more than 1 000 Aquillas flying around in South Africa].
5. If possible buy at the same airfield that you will be training at [preferable with an AP on site] – that way the after sales service should be good.

Good luck & regards
John ZU-CIB

[Fairy Flycatcher]

Now, see, that's being politically correct and just ducking controversy.

OK, you've got me :D

There are many, many variables in trikes, I guess the same with cars, and you can't really compare trike for trike until you know what you want to compare.

Almost every trike will be a good buy for the right pilot, there are just a couple which I would want to "warn" against, rather than say "this one is good", because that list will be endless. Trike manufacturers want to make a safe aircraft, it is in their interest, but some don't have the budget to spend on R&D, and others try to give in to their customers "need for speed" by shaving a bit off the top of safety features such as reflex and wash-out.

Maybe we should start a list of specific attributes first, and then a grade-box of what its good at. Ideally this should be a 'live' list, so that its not only one person's opinion which counts. Something like: control in turbulence, short-field capabilities, speed-range, front-seat comfort, back-seat comfort, usefull load, range, corrosion resistance etc.

What will make this doubly difficult is just that you will rarely find two trikes which are the same, as props, instruments, tyres, pods, and even wings change. But maybe we can give "attributes" which can be double-checked, such as wide tyres for beach / soft field landing.

I fly a Safari 503 (not 582), and I have 2 Safari's with lowish hours that I have my eye on to buy shortly. BUT, all these Safaris I fly have Aeros 14.8 wings. This, in my opinion is a great wing, and I was not in love with my previous Safari with different wings.

You can get an Aeros 14.8 wing which handles like a dog though. Best guy to see about that is Jenya, who will make sure that its performing at its best, and remain safe. Be battons can be bent, the wing-tips can be twisted, the spreader-bar position can change, the hang-point can chance, the keel-pocket restraint can change... the list is endless. As trike wings invariable stretch and "settle" a good understanding of wings and a good wing-man in your area is priceless.

My two trikes have done over 1400 hours each. 600 hours is not old, and the wing-sail should not need replacement before about 1000 hours, unless you have let it stand in the sun too much. UV is the biggest problem for us, and I think sails up in JHB should last even longer. New wings are not always great either, as they need to stretch a bit during the first 50-100 hours first.


It bothered me a bit that many people say they are upset that instructors get commission. Believe me, there is not enough money in instruction to live off that alone, and if you want a really good instructor, you want some-one who does it full-time. Commission earned by matching an aircraft with a student is money well spent by the student. Beware though of "brand-loyals", and try to make sure that you are matched to the right plane, and also that the instructor will help the student in future.

To anyone looking for the right buy, send me a mail or pm, and I will help you look for something in your budget, and give advice based on all the variables which is you. Your experience, weight, where you fly, why you fly, what you want to do, budget etc.

If you are going to chase speed in a trike though, be extra carefull, and rather look at something where proper R&D has come up with the something like the Quick / GT450

[Weg]

There is definetely room for an "airtest" section in Microflight or Afskies (Are they scared because trike manufacturer's advertise in them?)

Best bet is to go fly the plane yourself. Once you've flown two or three different ones you should get a good idea about which one flies better.

Don't think that a comparison or airtest in a magazine is much good as one only ever gets a lukewarm or hot response from a magazine publisher - never the cold shoulder. Also most mags will only publish an article on aircraft if the agents/manufacturers advertise with them, so again, particularly bad points of a trike will get played down.

Agree that the best is to fly them all and then decide. Different strokes for different folks.

[Tumbleweed]

In principal, I'm not against an instructor making a commission at all.

If good instructors can't make enough, we'll be stuck with bad one's. I just think that if they're tying you up with a sale, it should be said that they're recieving a com.

If all manufacturers offer a kickback to all flying schools then the student ( who does'nt know any better) won't feel he's been sucked into one type because of alterier motives.

I suppose it comes down to integrity.

Now, where were we?.

Are the new exotics twice the price twice as good and are all the manne what know ordering them?

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Are the new exotics twice the price twice as good and are all the manne what know ordering them?

Awesome discussion...

I have a couple idea's, but no time now to type, save to say - Make sure you compare apples with apples. The P&M's are R300K, but have 912's (which alone cost R130K+). No fair to comapre the 582 local is lekka to the 912 wiff double divorce gazoors pipes, bokdrawlic brakes, BRS umbrella and baboon tyres... Would be interested to see what is available locally in the 912 arena. What does the 912s Cobra full house cost for eg...

On the commission thing,
Why not offer the instructor a fee for finding you the right aerie, similar to insurance agent getting you the best rate. Full disclosure of the commission is required in the insurance industry. I have no problem with instructors earning commission and feel that an intro fee from the resellers would be good for business. Agencies cost huge bucks and the market is realistically not big enough. Improve the product and be compeditive and sales will follow.... If I was an instructor I would offer a buyers package similar to what FF mentioned before, but at a fee. Come for a test flight and we assess your needs and ability. If the agencies know you doing it they will make demo machines available. Get together have a beer and discuss budget, mission, weight, 1 up or 2 up, insurance requirements, BRS etc. Then find a couple aeries for the instructor to fly and he does test flights and reports back what he suggests based on the flights and not the commission. Buyer pays all travel costs if he want's instructor to look far and wide. If you in the market for a R50K windlass the budget (and commission) will be tight, but new aeries cost 3x that and I am sure most would be willing to pay a fee to get an educated opinion on their purchase, especially in the 2nd hand market. new maybe a different stroy, but again just needs some tweeking...

I used similar service that is suggested above for the pre purchase inspection of my RV. Will def do it again. Cost me 5% of purchase price which was well worth it...

2c

[John Young]

Cost me 5% of purchase price which was well worth it...

5% is both fair & average – paid mine with a smile.

These are after all “professional people” who deserve a fair commission.

Surely just answering 1 000 questions has a “price”.

Regards
John ZU-CIB