Trike insurance....MAYBE!

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Arnulf
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Postby Arnulf » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:55 pm

gertcoetzee wrote:
There are 100s microlighters who will support a firm that can answer honestly, and represent us in dealing with Santam etc.
Possibly microlights, and specifically trikes are considered only as small fry compared to the heavies, and therefore more of a nuisance than anything else.

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Postby Tumbleweed » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:31 pm

If our (only) insurance consultant prefers to remove his tie and golf cap and wear his balaklava, "Don't shoot the messenger".

As much as I would like to see stats quotes scenarios and figures, we can only gain insight as to there way of thinking.

If you guys knew how some claims got finalised, you would sh%#t yourselves.

Graham, tell us more. 530 hits on this subject. You might gain a few more clients. :D
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Microlight Insurance

Postby The Damn Buster » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:06 pm

The comments regarding Microlights insurance is far and varied, with Graham's entry into the foray, he is either brave, or fool hardy :D !!!!

Whilst "Big Business" rules the roost (viz-a-viz Santam), there ain't gonna be any meaningful shift in the way insurances are handled, and we will forever be sucking the hind t*t! Instead of allowing ourselves to be just "another number", I would gladly assist in getting together a board of trustees to set up a "microlighters" mutual fund (notwithstanding wading through a minefield of legislation set up to protect vested interests within the insurance industry) with the view of protecting our precious assets without "repurchasing it every five or so years"!!!

I proposed this scheme some 3 years ago, and it was met with much interest and support. The acturarial calculations would include inter alia craft type, value, pilot hours, and non-claim benefits.

Anyone interested in applying our collective minds on this issue, I would love to hear from you.

Let's make this "about microlighters, for microlighters, by microlighters".
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Postby DieselFan » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:57 pm

Would it be recognised by financial institutions?
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Postby The Damn Buster » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:29 pm

Not at all :shock: It is the very financial institutions that place an onerous burden on any entity that causes it to be inefficient, and you and I end up paying for that inefficiency....big time! :evil:

I propose that it remain exclusively for the microlight fraternity, in underwriting their flying assets. In doing so, it'll be closed to the "general public". Thus, we can get around the DTI and FSB requirements. :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is for this reason that the fund will be governed by a board of trustees, who will be responsible, and accountable, on how the fund will be administered. :idea: :!: :idea: :!:

As mentioned, I have been working on an insurance model for over 3 years, and have built up a comprehensive framework that could be considered. We have potentially huge statistical information available to us, I believe that not only pilot hours need to considered, but airframe hours as well, in conjunction with craft-type hours. That'll very quickly identify those craft that have a lower MTBF ratio. :P

If we wait for "someone outside of the industry" to find solutions for us, we'll wait for ever. By insurance's very existence, they'll find solutions to suite THEIR industry segment, NOT the microlight industry segment. Hence, we'll forever be "short-changed". WE'VE GOT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, no one else :) :) :)

Don't learn history, but rather learn FROM history. People that have made an impact on the quality of human lives are people that have had the courage to challenged convention. Insurance, but it's very nature is extremely cautious.....and we pay for that cautiousness, and receive very little in return. At the end of the day....the final choice rests with the individuals. Simple as that. :D :D :D
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Postby Duck Rogers » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:11 pm

Graham Speller wrote:......I'll have more time to practise my golf...and, believe me, I need all the practise I can get!
I can help you with that. I'm VERY good at it (Golf, that is) We just need to arrange a premium through my Broker, of course. :D

BTW, thanks for answering my question and putting the record straight. !!!!

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Postby Arnulf » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:13 am

Graham Speller wrote:
I'll have more time to practise my golf...and, believe me, I need all the practise I can get!
I have a better Idea. Why don't you come for a ride in a microlight early on a crisp winters morning. This will be probably be far more rewarding and substantially less frustrating than trying to hit a little white ball to smithers.

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Postby Arnulf » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:33 am

Hi,

what the Damn Buster suggests is possibly the way forward. Insurance like that can work.

The SAA pilots have a very successful loss of licence scheme run in such a way. Initially the rules were not good, and the fund was sucked dry. The clever okes changed the rules slightly, and now the fund works very satisfactorily. It costs a fraction of what the insurance industry would charge, and all paricipants have a share in the fund which performs very well. When a member leaves the fund his share gets paid out. So the whole scheme is not only an insurance, but also an investment scheme, with very healthy returns.

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Arnulf
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Postby The Damn Buster » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:19 am

I good example of an individual taking on an entire industry segment, and winning, is Adrian Gore, founder of DISCOVERY HEALTH. :D :D There is no reason why the intrepid spirit of freedom and adventure displayed by the microlighting fraternity cannot be extended into areas previously preserved by ultra-cautious financial geeks who sole idea of orgasmic pleasure is watching the stock-markets climb 3,5%! :lol: :lol:

In founding DISCOVERY HEALTH, Adrian Gore believed in creating a concept of investing in a "positive outcome" rather than insuring to constantly "expect the worst". Possibly, if we adopted a similar mindset approach of INVESTING IN MAINTAINING OUR FLYING PLEASURE :D :D , rather than just protecting ourselves from our f*&^%&^% up's :evil: :evil: , the outcome could extremely gratifying, and immensely rewarding.

To expand on the endless possibilities, this could also include a "maintence plan" type approach to ensure that our flying assets are always maintained in pristine condition, according to specified maintenance schedules, thus eliminating (or rather reducing) forced incidents due to careless maintenance regimens, due to one's financial constraints. Once again, this type approach would PROMOTE AIR SAFETY, thus reducing the RISK EXPOSURE. It becomes a greater WIN-WIN continuum.
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Postby Jerry B » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:53 am

DB, I am a skeptic I am afraid. Why has this not worked in the past? Why did it not work last time you tried it? There was another guy who was trying to do it recently - recently in Microflight!

In principle it may be okay, but in practice personally I have my doubts. The costs I imagine (no-one does this for nothing, and you need someone to run the scheme - admin etc) would kill it unless you have a large group willing to go on all at once. Unlikely.... there are other problems also... Note - this is not to say that I am not keen on your attempt. On the contrary, cost vs benefit looks good and I am in!

Fact is that my micro is a toy and while one of the more expensive ones, I am not betting my retirement on the fact I will still have it around at 65.

I think that this issue will continue indefinitely personally. Personally I think that the one broker who we believe can do something, apparently wont / cant. :roll: Worse still wont talk about it. Still trying to get my head around that one... :evil:

For the meantime... money's in my pocket!
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Postby The Damn Buster » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:32 pm

Thanks for your input, Jerry B. All input is always valuable.

For the record, I HAVEN'T ever done anything like this in the past.

Notwithstanding, if we had to base all our decisions based on what happened in the past, then we would never have had the privilege of knowing what flight is all about, because the sceptics have all claimed that flight is the preserve of the birds! :lol: How many tragic failures have resulted in engineering enhancements that ensure that our flight is all the more safer? (-)

The mistake that most people make (in setting up something like this) is trying to create a model based on another industry segment. The rules of one industry segment are completely different from another industry segment.

By starting from a base that there is no other industry segment like that of microlighting, and therefore we need to create something completely unique to microlighting, is a good place to start.

Before I appear to be extremely hypothetical air-head, I need to state that I have been extremely successful in the past 30 years in putting together diverse concepts and making them work. This includes creating the SAA Voyager programme and Southern Sun's Frequent Guest programme, as well as International Central Reservation systems covering diverse hospitality resources, not mention financial models currenly used in the medical industry segment. Although I am now retired from the IT industry :D :D :D , I still have a very active, creative and analytical mind.

Past failures have never been a good enough reason not to continually evaluate market needs and, thus, finding solutions in addressing the market needs. That what makes life so interesting....we are in a constant state of change! :D :D :D

In support of this concept, how many times have pilots had "engine-outs", but that hasn't stopped them from continually seeking the freedom of the skies? This is no different in the financial/insurance industry. :wink: :wink: :wink:

The bottom line is simply this...we need to find solutions to address our needs. In doing so, we need people who have a positive disposition and foresight, in spite of past failures, to continue strive to discover those solutions, what ever it takes. :D :D
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Postby Tumbleweed » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:40 pm

Couragous idea.

I think a poll needs to evaluate whether there is in fact enough demand.

I.e. Identify first fix wing/ trike or Gyro, then place your estimated replacement value and would you condsider cover.

I think most with aeries below R100 K would'nt consider cover.

Will a gyro pilot feel agrieved paying e.g. R2 500 .00 p/m for his R500K pride and joy whilst the farmer contributes R100 for his 6 year old 503?

Those above R150K, would they require cover only in the air i.e. no trailor / hangar risk?

If so, is policing proper maintenance i.e. PA sufficient along with stringent procedures i.e. flushing out petrol cans before every refill, keeping fuel hose dust free, mandatory call to weather dept before flying further than than 1 hour round trip?. Swop pre- flight with your mates e.t.c.

Can one get confirmation that plug change / filter wash e.t.c. have been done as required? (owners could undertake themselves, just have acknowledgement)

Will the AP include checking all radio / comms / guages and electrics ( chuck out the k@k battery) and then fly the plane?

Personally, I don't see many signing up because

a) They are confident in their own abilities to maintain / fly

b) Another R800 p/m along with hangar cost, fuel to a salary earner will push it to expensive

Maybe, MISASA can. if not already, place the terms and conditions of their 3rd party cover?. I've cot the cover, but not asked for any details.

Only my thoughts.[/i]
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Postby The Damn Buster » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:21 pm

Hi Delta VV,

The questions you raised would certainly form a basis upon which to calculate one's contribution rate. Added to this would be a myriad of other factors, least of all the value of the asset, and the hours used. This would be an important consideration.

Whilst the original principle of insurance (going back over 10000 years in Chinese history) is about carrying cross-risk and cross-subsidisation, factors that need to borne in mind is the fact that an aerie sitting in a hangar most of the time is far less risk-exposed than a gyro doing 20/30 hrs per month. :lol: :lol:

Apart from pilots logging their times, it is mandatory that every craft logs airframe time as well. This will go a long way in determining rates, rebates and incentives, etc.. As this info has to be submitted to CAA annually, so why not extend it to include favourable insurance cover? :P :P

As I indicated in an earlier posting, we have to create a completely unique product that fulfils the needs of the microlight fraternity, and it cannot be based on any other industry segment structure or experience. Suggestions such as yours go a long in creating a framework from which to build a unique product. :D

Regarding motorcar insurance, in recent months there has been a big promotional push by insurance companies to charge according to the number of miles/kilometres a vehicle has travelled, rather than a blanket rate irrespective of the number of miles/kilometres travelled. This is a far more equitable contribution to risk cover. Someone is waking up to the fact that the technology is available to the development, and maintenance, of a "consumption based" personal risk profile calculation. In fact, it has been around for years, but adapting to change is always the hardest hurdle for most people to overcome. :shock: :shock:

Not only has the technology been available to achieve this, it is very cheap. For instance, monthly/annual pilot and airframe times can be posted via the internet and precludes the need for teams of data capture clerks. Using this method would earn the insured rebates and a host of other incentives, over and above his/her already reduce premium. :lol:

Furthermore, by keeping this exclusive to microlighters, the absolute maximum number of members would be a little more than 2500. Hence, there would be no cross-subsidisation of administration costs for other products, which are invariably loss-leaders, and priced accordingly.

I'm under no illusion as to enormity of putting something like this together, notwithstanding the time frame of nothing less than 18 months. There would be critical masses that would have to be achieved, in terms of fraternity commitment, before any contributions would commence, not to mention the whole legalities, promotions, etc.

As mentioned previously, it would have to be run as "a Club" thus avoiding running foul of the DTI, FSB or any other statutory body. I first mooted this idea about 3 years ago, and have been actively involved in gathering as much information from many quarters as possible regarding all the legalities, statutes, pitfalls, you name it, I've sussed it out!!!! :D :D :D :D ------Not for sissies!!!! (As you so wisely observed.....a courageous task!)

I'm confident that with the right mix of Product, Price, Performance, together with a dash of enthusiasm, passion, and energy....anything is possible!!!!! Watch this space! :D :D
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Postby Graham Speller » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:25 am

No, I haven't been avoiding anyone. I had problems with my account, after I took advice and changed my personal profile. Now fixed, thanks to Demon.

Gert - with deepest respect, I think your comments are way out of line. You start by admitting that you posted my message to you, sent with a confidentiality clause appended, onto a public forum, without prior reference to me and without my consent. I then contacted you and asked if you felt it would be helpful if I joined the forum to deal with insurance issues. You confirmed you did. So I did. However, my experience of forums, limited as it might be, is that they are there to create a place for debate, and not for commercial gain/promotion. So, I made it clear that I was participating in my private capacity and NOT for commercial purposes (which would be the case if I was representing a company).

Your response was to launch a personal attack on me, demanding that I respond as a representative of my company and not as an individual! You then go further and tell me what I should do in my private time (play golf) and what I should do in my office time (post messages onto this forum).

The only reason I am posting THIS message is because I still believe, notwithstanding your comments, that there could be a benefit to having someone prepared to answer questions about insurance without trying to punt any particular insurance broker or insurance company.

Damn Buster - I've come to the conclusion that I'm foolhardy but I've committed to participating, so I'm not going to back out now or I will be torn limb from limb!

Arnulf - thanks for the offer. Maybe when it's a bit warmer? But you're right about that sodding little white ball!

Jerry B - it's not a case of can't/won't do anything. That's already happening, but I'm not going to use this forum to advertise. Sorry, call me old-fashioned, but that's the way I am. And it's not a case of "won't talk about it"...see above...I was locked out!

Damn Buster. I think your idea has considerable merit. I'm not sure of the legalities and costs involved in establishing a mutual fund, but I daresay it would be easy enough to find out.

My only comment is that, historically, such a concept usually only works well while there is no viable traditional insurance-based solution available. So I think that, when it comes to microlight insurance, you need to start by identifying what the problem is that is being addressed. Is it the unavailability of insurance, or the cost of it? Clearly, in this case, the insurance is available, it's the cost that is the problem. So, instead of trying to replace insurance, perhaps an alternative approach would be to try to work with the insurance industry to deal with the cost of it?

Any stats that an insurance company provides will, by definition, only be based on the policies it has written and will not reflect the industry as a whole. If only high-risk operations carry insurance, guess what the results are going to be?

So I think it would be a useful starting point to put together some statistics from the microlight fraternity itself, rather than simply demanding that insurance companies open their books for inspection.

As a starting point, I will try to get a list of microlight losses that have occurred over the past, say, 3 years. This will be based on those losses which were reported to the SACAA. I assume that this would include all of them, since all accidents must be reported?

Thereafter, it will be a matter of filling in the blanks i.e. (a) was the loss insured, (b) what where the repair costs or what was the insurance settlement, etc.

If, as an industry, microlighters can go to the insurance industry with credible statistics to prove what (a) the accident rate is (for various types of aircraft, types of use, levels of pilot experience) and (b) what the actual average cost/accident is, I think any self-respecting insurance company would be bound to listen. And I assure you all that the insurer that is often mentioned in this forum is one of the finest in the country, which bends over backwards to pay claims, not to avoid them.

OK, that's enough waffle from me for now.

I'll post again when I have some information.
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Postby Graham Speller » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:25 am

No, I haven't been avoiding anyone. I had problems with my account, after I took advice and changed my personal profile. Now fixed, thanks to Demon.

Gert - with deepest respect, I think your comments are way out of line. You start by admitting that you posted my message to you, sent with a confidentiality clause appended, onto a public forum, without prior reference to me and without my consent. I then contacted you and asked if you felt it would be helpful if I joined the forum to deal with insurance issues. You confirmed you did. So I did. However, my experience of forums, limited as it might be, is that they are there to create a place for debate, and not for commercial gain/promotion. So, I made it clear that I was participating in my private capacity and NOT for commercial purposes (which would be the case if I was representing a company).

Your response was to launch a personal attack on me, demanding that I respond as a representative of my company and not as an individual! You then go further and tell me what I should do in my private time (play golf) and what I should do in my office time (post messages onto this forum).

The only reason I am posting THIS message is because I still believe, notwithstanding your comments, that there could be a benefit to having someone prepared to answer questions about insurance without trying to punt any particular insurance broker or insurance company.

Damn Buster - I've come to the conclusion that I'm foolhardy but I've committed to participating, so I'm not going to back out now or I will be torn limb from limb!

Arnulf - thanks for the offer. Maybe when it's a bit warmer? But you're right about that sodding little white ball!

Jerry B - it's not a case of can't/won't do anything. That's already happening, but I'm not going to use this forum to advertise. Sorry, call me old-fashioned, but that's the way I am. And it's not a case of "won't talk about it"...see above...I was locked out!

Damn Buster. I think your idea has considerable merit. I'm not sure of the legalities and costs involved in establishing a mutual fund, but I daresay it would be easy enough to find out.

My only comment is that, historically, such a concept usually only works well while there is no viable traditional insurance-based solution available. So I think that, when it comes to microlight insurance, you need to start by identifying what the problem is that is being addressed. Is it the unavailability of insurance, or the cost of it? Clearly, in this case, the insurance is available, it's the cost that is the problem. So, instead of trying to replace insurance, perhaps an alternative approach would be to try to work with the insurance industry to deal with the cost of it?

Any stats that an insurance company provides will, by definition, only be based on the policies it has written and will not reflect the industry as a whole. If only high-risk operations carry insurance, guess what the results are going to be?

So I think it would be a useful starting point to put together some statistics from the microlight fraternity itself, rather than simply demanding that insurance companies open their books for inspection.

As a starting point, I will try to get a list of microlight losses that have occurred over the past, say, 3 years. This will be based on those losses which were reported to the SACAA. I assume that this would include all of them, since all accidents must be reported?

Thereafter, it will be a matter of filling in the blanks i.e. (a) was the loss insured, (b) what where the repair costs or what was the insurance settlement, etc.

If, as an industry, microlighters can go to the insurance industry with credible statistics to prove what (a) the accident rate is (for various types of aircraft, types of use, levels of pilot experience) and (b) what the actual average cost/accident is, I think any self-respecting insurance company would be bound to listen. And I assure you all that the insurer that is often mentioned in this forum is one of the finest in the country, which bends over backwards to pay claims, not to avoid them.

OK, that's enough waffle from me for now.

I'll post again when I have some information.

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