Very Disappointed with the flying community

[Vatso]

I do appreciate the replies and do understand the learning part from an accident and discussion it brings

What I don't want is my Son or wife to read about is an opinion from some one who knows nothing about the incident and or my skills be they good or bad! and how it could have been avoided if only this or that and and and.

I believe my family and the families of the lost ones deserve some respect - it's a great idea to keep them separate that would work.

there are comments about how hard the impact must have been for there to be a fire!! all I know is that I keep my fuel pump running during take off and have it on until I am at a safe altitude - if I were to hit the ground and the pipe came loss I could also be burnt due to the pump pumping fuel out

[Asterix]

Hi Vatso,

The comments made about the impact that had to be very, very, hard to cause a fire, was made by me - so I will respond to your thread:

1. First of all you may note from my posts that I am one of the first to respect the demise of fellow flyers, and re-direct speculation and general discussion about emerging topics to separate threads;
2. Secondly, I maintain (untill proven otherwise) that trikes rarely burn - especially with crashes involving a low angled slow approach to the ground, ( and I have actually been eye-witness to this on occassion) The question stems from my own usage of an Aquilla over the lenghts and breadths of this country - doing numerous outlandings in hostile terrain, and I would like to know WHY an Aquilla might start burning. Nothing sinister about the question, but I do not believe that an Aquilla will burn on a slow speed crash - therefore my comment - I want to LEARN. (As to your remark about your fuel-pump - I know a couple of pilots on this forum that walked away from trike craches with fuel all over the place, including their flightsuits and faces, and they are still with us today without burn-scars. The answer to the burning of a trike involves more than the presence of spilled fuel.)

3. Thirdly - speculations are not restricted to accidents. I have stared death in the face on at least three occasions, and every time I shared my experiences on this forum - proving to this community that I am indeed a poepol, who does not know his east from his west. I have also ranted emotionally about the advice given to new pilots by other much more experienced pilots, to the point that I excused myself from the forum due to my rantings! (They forgave me and allowed me back)

4. I respect my fellow - pilots. But when they DIE - I want to know WHY. The reasons are simple: I want to know whether a) It was his own error of judgement, in which case I want ALL the debate in the world about the conditions prevailing at the time of his error, so to avoid it myself, or b) whether it was his trike - in which case I want to know WHY his machine suffered failure, so to make sure I do the necesary to avoid the same failure on my own machine.

None of this is meant to be insensitive to those in grief - check my posts under the relevant thread. But also - I am not going to stick my head in the sand, and not inquire about the cause merely to spare feelings. Those that are personally affected should stay away from the inquisitive side of the debate if it offends / saddens them.

NS: If ever I meet my own demise in my plane, I would encourage all my flying friends to debate my death for hundreds of pages - in the process another life might be saved from my errors. Personally, I have shared the instances where I SHOULD have died, but didn't on this forum - and my family would understand the debate, should I perish in flight. Althought, they would also be suffering grief. They understand the inherent risks of what I do.

[Vatso]

@ Asterix I am not saying that the debate is not a good thing we are debating now and that is a good thing what I am saying is that there is a place for it and maybe it's not where we give our condolences.

you are right trikes don't burn often there could be many reasons it could have happened and not just a burst tank from hitting the ground hard...

I enjoy the posts people put about close calls that for me is very helpful and I learn a lot and there should be a place where people can discuss accidents

[Asterix]

Yes Vatso - indeed there is a place for debate. That place is called "Incident and Accident Reports." And there we WILL debate, without emotion.

You will note from all the posts on that thread, that there is no personal judgements on the departed pilot. That is our respect. But also, you will note over the coming weeks and months that this thread will remain active - for the sole reason that we all want to get to the bottom of it, put forward ideas and caveats, and alltogether ensure a safer flying community.

So to quote your topic: " Very disappointed with the flying community" - you don't have to be. The Flying Community takes an active interest in anything that happens in our community, especially when it involves death, for one reason alone, and that reason is" "How do we prevent this in future?", with reference to a) my own flying / maintenance habits, and b) the broader good of fellow pilots and c) IMPORTANTLY - safety of innocent passengers.

I am sure that the deceased looks down on us and encourage us to learn..

[John.com]

"Give that man a bells!"

Well written James! Thanks for taking the time to put your very well constructed posts together.

[John Boucher]

James - you banished yourself... and

(They forgave me and allowed me back)

Yes ... with open arms and a fanfare!

A commendable post yet again from you sir and not just a tot... a whole bottle!

This is the nature of microlighters.co.za

[Africa]

I happen to agree with Vatso here in a way. I do understand the learning side of these acident posts but do people actually learn from them? If I say that I got caught in a very bad wind gust then the forum will hammer me for flying in that weather and yet everyone will still go fly in it.... I have seen endless posts on Avcom about flying in cloud then 2 very exp pilots in the albatroses go and fly into a mountain. The "impossible turn" well I have had 8 engine failures and in one of them i turn back and made it, if I had died I would have been the biggest D#@s ever but I lived, it was a calculated risk and it worked, but to get on a forum as Vatso says and blast a dead pilot for turning back the same day of the crash is inexcusable in my opinion. Maybe that pilot had enough hight in his opinion, maybe the engine did not die untill after the turn, a million maybies... yet no matter how much we turn back or talk about how bad it is to do that people will still do it. Then there is talk about all the legal paper work... so folks will have everything as per the law and others wont, we will be hashing these things out in 10 years from now trying to educate people just like we did 22 years ago when I started flying.
If there is an accident I believe in the chatter as to what the witnesses said, where it happened and what the weather was like etc but to NOT say how stupid this guy was for turning back, for flying at that time of the day, flying to low etc because we were not there and we do not know what actually happened until the investigating was complete. I have been involved in thousands of accident investigations and 99% of the time everyone is dead wrong about the cause. Now on the other hand there are just silly accidents like flying into power lines.... again these crashes are totally unaceptable but again it does not bring anyone back to blast the pilot. he is dead and his family are upset and they do not want to know the guy was an idiot even though we all know that. It seems like some folks like to talk people down on the forums. I have not really seen very bad posts on Microlighters but avom has really upset me and I fly them all, LSA, CCM, PPL, COM. we are all here to have fun and enjoy our sport and build people up not shoot them down.

what the flying comunity needs to do is find ways to reduce accidents with constructive action. I personally think over regualtion is a major cause in SA. why are our accidents up there with the highest in the world? I have flown in many countries and Sa pilots are tops yet we have a terrible accident rate? and against what Avcom says its the GA pilots with the highest crash rate in SA... why is this? the raasa pilots fly way more hours yet have less accidents? maybe there is a reason? Is it maybe the pilots we are attracting? is it the schools? AMO's? I dont know but thats where we need to learn. We are taught during training when to fly, where to fly, how high we fly but yet pilots still persist on doing the opposite? I hate it when I read about the accident in ermelo about a structural failure.... then when Alex got there it was not.. how many pilots wanted to stop flying trikes just because of that bad speculation? i bet many, I taught alan honeyborne to fly and he was killed and I took mega strain untill I talked with Ricky and found out what actually happend. Remember we are all adults and we must take responsibility for what we do.

I know this will enrage some folks but thats not what i am trying to do. Just go get into the plane, have fun, fly the way your instructor taught you and enjoy each other. If an accident happens, let the authorities do the job, post the accident report and learn from it but please guys no name calling, or fighting about what happened with an opinion. No one wants to blatently fly into the ground and kill him'herself. its called an accident not a purpose.
fly safe
Jamie

[Vatso]

I happen to agree with Vatso here in a way. I do understand the learning side of these acident posts but do people actually learn from them? If I say that I got caught in a very bad wind gust then the forum will hammer me for flying in that weather and yet everyone will still go fly in it.... I have seen endless posts on Avcom about flying in cloud then 2 very exp pilots in the albatroses go and fly into a mountain. The "impossible turn" well I have had 8 engine failures and in one of them i turn back and made it, if I had died I would have been the biggest D#@s ever but I lived, it was a calculated risk and it worked, but to get on a forum as Vatso says and blast a dead pilot for turning back the same day of the crash is inexcusable in my opinion. Maybe that pilot had enough hight in his opinion, maybe the engine did not die untill after the turn, a million maybies... yet no matter how much we turn back or talk about how bad it is to do that people will still do it. Then there is talk about all the legal paper work... so folks will have everything as per the law and others wont, we will be hashing these things out in 10 years from now trying to educate people just like we did 22 years ago when I started flying.
If there is an accident I believe in the chatter as to what the witnesses said, where it happened and what the weather was like etc but to NOT say how stupid this guy was for turning back, for flying at that time of the day, flying to low etc because we were not there and we do not know what actually happened until the investigating was complete. I have been involved in thousands of accident investigations and 99% of the time everyone is dead wrong about the cause. Now on the other hand there are just silly accidents like flying into power lines.... again these crashes are totally unaceptable but again it does not bring anyone back to blast the pilot. he is dead and his family are upset and they do not want to know the guy was an idiot even though we all know that. It seems like some folks like to talk people down on the forums. I have not really seen very bad posts on Microlighters but avom has really upset me and I fly them all, LSA, CCM, PPL, COM. we are all here to have fun and enjoy our sport and build people up not shoot them down.

what the flying comunity needs to do is find ways to reduce accidents with constructive action. I personally think over regualtion is a major cause in SA. why are our accidents up there with the highest in the world? I have flown in many countries and Sa pilots are tops yet we have a terrible accident rate? and against what Avcom says its the GA pilots with the highest crash rate in SA... why is this? the raasa pilots fly way more hours yet have less accidents? maybe there is a reason? Is it maybe the pilots we are attracting? is it the schools? AMO's? I dont know but thats where we need to learn. We are taught during training when to fly, where to fly, how high we fly but yet pilots still persist on doing the opposite? I hate it when I read about the accident in ermelo about a structural failure.... then when Alex got there it was not.. how many pilots wanted to stop flying trikes just because of that bad speculation? i bet many, I taught alan honeyborne to fly and he was killed and I took mega strain untill I talked with Ricky and found out what actually happend. Remember we are all adults and we must take responsibility for what we do.

I know this will enrage some folks but thats not what i am trying to do. Just go get into the plane, have fun, fly the way your instructor taught you and enjoy each other. If an accident happens, let the authorities do the job, post the accident report and learn from it but please guys no name calling, or fighting about what happened with an opinion. No one wants to blatently fly into the ground and kill him'herself. its called an accident not a purpose.
fly safe
Jamie

+1

[falconp1]

Very well put Africa.

[kloot piloot]

I have flown in many countries and Sa pilots are tops yet we have a terrible accident rate? and against what Avcom says its the GA pilots with the highest crash rate in SA... why is this? the raasa pilots fly way more hours yet have less accidents? maybe there is a reason? Is it maybe the pilots we are attracting? is it the schools? AMO's? I dont know but thats where we need to learn. We are taught during training when to fly, where to fly, how high we fly but yet pilots still persist on doing the opposite? Jamie

Very provocative thoughts for a healthy debate Africa. I like it !

I have stuck my neck out here on Microlighters in the past and got roasted for it. But the crux lies in ENFORCEMENT. Over-regulation has never been a bad thing, as long as it is ENFORCED. South Africa has arguably the best over-regulated constitution in the world protecting human rights, freedom of speach and respect to race, religion and creed. Yet, we sit with huge crime, a rampant labour force, illegal tobacco advertising on every shop counter, rape, car accidents and GA accidents to mention a few.

WHY ?

Laws do not prevent crime or aircraft accidents. But visible and educational law ENFORCEMENT creates debate and results in practical laws which are enforceable. Fines, bans and tea at CAA works to a degree, but it does not reach the masses and it makes the legal system draconian. This in turn subjects the system to abuse with fatal results (pardon the not intended pun).

Vatso, the current over-regulated and un-enforceable system unfortunately results in CAA accident reports only being finalised 2 - 3 years after the relevance with little, if any, educational relevance. (refer to Jakkalsdanse's recent traumatic experience and my ZU-AZP experience elsewhere on this forum, as well as many other dissatisfied CAA accident investigation "customers").

This makes Asterix' post above very relevant and fair. When your law maker and enforcer fails you, you inevitably will start to dig for the truth yourselve. And that is where sometimes speculation during trying times will step on toes, but not intentionally. Cause and closure are sought urgently by fellow aviators. This is a balanced aviators forum and we cannot allow to desensitise it for the sake of relatives (who in fact have the option to avoid entering this website) while fellow pilots are debating cause and prevention. Sounds harsh, but bear with my reasoning.

Change your thread heading to "Very dissapointed with our non-enforcing law makers".

Roel

[Bundy]

We are drifting slightly off the topic here but Roel raises some very interesting points here....allow me please to "drift" a bit too?

I have taken a very active interest in Accidents since I started flying. NO...I do not have a morbid facsination with Death and destruction, I simply believe that there are vital lessons and clues to be learnt from studying and speculating around possible causes that will benefit me and others, and possibly even point out glaring similarities in my own flying that need urgent attention. That's it.

Coming back to the CAA....I have read almost every accident report involving WCM ( and others) from the last 5 years or so and I can tell you that I have lost faith in the accuracy and details contained in these "Executive Summaries". The fatal crash of Eddie is just one example of completely poor and incomplete "investigation". These reports contain almost no information on the actual accident...and are mainly full of "admin details", which in many instances including the Piet Retief acident mentioned are completely wrong! WHY????

I point to our own "oopsie" in March last year. The accident report (still not published) will prob say this: "Pilot lost directional control on landing". So what the hell does that mean chaps? This is why the speculation and ideas brought forward by discussion and debate are so important to finding the root cause. The Thread related to DBP's accident will contain MUCH MORE information on the actual cause of the crash. I also ask why, after nearly a year this report is not out yet? The investigator did not inspect the wreck or the site, we handed in the statements and detailed photo's within 7 days, he had the tel no's of the two (pilot) eye witnesses who prob have the best information re the prang. Why does this take so long in an open and shut case like this? I just dont understand what is going on within the confines of the CAA I'm afraid.

In terms of Enforcement, the only organ of Governance that can do this is the CAA. A CAHRS report will go straight to their legal dept for consideration...a report to MISASA (ARO) will go to RAASA and then onto the same legal dept at CAA for consideration. There is little consultation that goes on after the case has been handed over to the Legal dept and they will decide what (if anything) gets done. Remember too, that there has to be sufficient evidence avaliable to warrent a fine or action....as well as the fact that the "defendant" may want to appeal or challenge a decision. This probably also explains why very little is done in many of these cases.

I have no problem with abiding by the current regulations, I do however have a problem with what seems to be the selective prosecution or action towards transgressors by the CAA? I also would like more consultation between the ARO (in our case MISASA) and the Legal dept during the process, to ensure that the system is being applied fairly. Would you not want your peers (who actually fly the same aircraft) to have a say or make reccomendations when you have been accused of something? Laws can be interperated in different ways as we can clearly see with the debate around Part 96 for example?

We do not need more regulations. Those who abide by them and fly safely do so allready, the small group of pilots who allready break the rules are certainly not going to follow any other ones? What we need is fair and CONSISTENT enforcement on the part of CAA...can we really look around ourselves now and say that this is what we currently have?

I'm sure you have your own thoughts around this too?

[Africa]

I have flown in many countries and Sa pilots are tops yet we have a terrible accident rate? and against what Avcom says its the GA pilots with the highest crash rate in SA... why is this? the raasa pilots fly way more hours yet have less accidents? maybe there is a reason? Is it maybe the pilots we are attracting? is it the schools? AMO's? I dont know but thats where we need to learn. We are taught during training when to fly, where to fly, how high we fly but yet pilots still persist on doing the opposite? Jamie

Very provocative thoughts for a healthy debate Africa. I like it !

I have stuck my neck out here on Microlighters in the past and got roasted for it. But the crux lies in ENFORCEMENT. Over-regulation has never been a bad thing, as long as it is ENFORCED. South Africa has arguably the best over-regulated constitution in the world protecting human rights, freedom of speach and respect to race, religion and creed. Yet, we sit with huge crime, a rampant labour force, illegal tobacco advertising on every shop counter, rape, car accidents and GA accidents to mention a few.

WHY ?

Laws do not prevent crime or aircraft accidents. But visible and educational law ENFORCEMENT creates debate and results in practical laws which are enforceable. Fines, bans and tea at CAA works to a degree, but it does not reach the masses and it makes the legal system draconian. This in turn subjects the system to abuse with fatal results (pardon the not intended pun).

Vatso, the current over-regulated and un-enforceable system unfortunately results in CAA accident reports only being finalised 2 - 3 years after the relevance with little, if any, educational relevance. (refer to Jakkalsdanse's recent traumatic experience and my ZU-AZP experience elsewhere on this forum, as well as many other dissatisfied CAA accident investigation "customers").

This makes Asterix' post above very relevant and fair. When your law maker and enforcer fails you, you inevitably will start to dig for the truth yourselve. And that is where sometimes speculation during trying times will step on toes, but not intentionally. Cause and closure are sought urgently by fellow aviators. This is a balanced aviators forum and we cannot allow to desensitise it for the sake of relatives (who in fact have the option to avoid entering this website) while fellow pilots are debating cause and prevention. Sounds harsh, but bear with my reasoning.

Change your thread heading to "Very dissapointed with our non-enforcing law makers".

Roel

Hi Kloot, no thats not quite what I mean, I do not believe that 99% of accidents are caused by poor "policing" for example, the crash in Phalaborwa, everything was legal and even if CAA was on the airfield that fateful morning the accident would have still occured and so would most of them. There are very good pilots on here that are great people and good instructors still crashing fatally even while abiding to the law but here is my point.... when I say over regulation I am talking about aviation in general and mainly PPL to com. I have recently returned from the states while I was there for 10 years. I had a very current FAA com with IFR and all the bells. before I left to the States i had a grade A LSA or those days a microlight instructors rating and a PPL. Ok so my PPL and micro stuff expired. It was a God aweful experience to get them all back. I had to go and do a few hours with a com ppl instructor who had 300 hours and just got his stuff. I almost told him to shove this change back to due to sargent major style of checks in "his order" other than mine. I have my own style/system as you call it to do my checks so why change after 6500 hours of instruction etc?? ok then cam the fact I had to rewrite 3 exams ppl level. Airlaw which was ok and was pretty good to refresh my memory again, then Met, totally ridiculous, the book is as thicker than my entire USA com book and teaches about Lamberts charts?? WTH come on, so ok then I had to do performance and planning again way too much that pilots never use, and never will use at PPL level. In fact I got 98% for that exam and please if you asked me to write now I would get 30%. my point is that a pilot with a full time job and a family will really struggle with these exams that teach crap from the 1950ties.

Then came my flight test which was awesome because this time I used a grade 2 ppl instructor here in Hoedspruit that was an aerosud instructor and he was awesome. ok so FT passed all exams passed, then send paper work to CAA. 3 weeks later declined due to no SA medical. Whats wrong with a FAA medical? same thing? class 1 to class 3?? ok I go pay 1200 bucksget a medicle then a week later declined again. Now I need an english proficiancy exam?? come on.. i had a SA ppl and a micro grade A and everything....... ok back to the point, the farmer who has to go through all this will tell CAA to gaan vlieg and they will fly anyway. Why not make it that we teach good pilots, make the lic practical and use theory with everyday stuff, weight and bal, take off runs, how to read a map, GPS etc. maybe add more navs into training but the theory is over board IMO

So are we not atracting pilots who are very academic with less natuaral flying feel? I dont know? as for the accident investigations to Kloot and Bundy I honest believe that with Trikes the CAA do not have the training about weightshift to conduct a good investigation and thats why they should appoint a Mike blythe or someone who understands trikes and the way they work. I was not saying that the over regualtion came from the policing, infact we are under policed but I think the regulation is over the top thats why there is too much to police. I know of accidents that involve clouds... why did the pilot not stay above as he was there illegal already and ask ATC for a vector let down? its because they are so scared they will get ridiculed on the rorums that they rather try them selves and die doing it. Kloot as per the forum, I agree we must get to the bottom on crashes as it interests us and we can learn but what I was asking that we do not Idiotize the pilot when we do not know what actually happened. Lets talk all we can and ask questions but its not cool to see comments like "there is a low turn again and now he has left his family in tatters" kind of stuff.

I am for ramp inspections, propper paper work but thats not where wwe are broken down, we are broken with maybe too much theory and no enough practical.
By the way though there is no place like Africa and I cannot wait to meet you all at flyaways in this year.
Jamie mathewson

[Tumbleweed]

I thinks its about tact and a balance.

We all troll the accident reports trying to prevent ourselves from suffering the same fate, but until credible evidence comes foreward from eye witnesses or experienced pilots it's futile to debate specifics like tumbling, fires, stalls e.t.c. questioning the pilot and aircraft type's integrity.

Also, local hangar buddies might have better idea but choose to not share over the internet for the same reason.

Personally, after an early flying experience, I now embrace the 'recreational pilot' thing completely and if it's not lekker then I don't fly. I also believe that all reasons for accidents have been used up so if we follow what we were taught and learned from the experienced guys then we should be OK.

CAA legislation would not have prevented someone flying when the weather was frot or someone never paid enough attention to the 'practice engine outs and know your aerries stall, glide and turn around limitations'.

Authorities and our instructors are not always there to remind us to not make k@k so close to the ground, approach at stall speed in crappy winds, take into account density altitude

Maybe an accident would have been prevented if the pilot gave a quick pre- brief whilst taxiing and just said something like " This plane is has a small gliding capacity so don't touch I'll know what to do".

An experienced instructor unless battling with structural issues will plant a trike within 10 metres of designated spot regardless of conditions because thats what they train daily.

So until such time as more details surface I'm content to wait for more credible inputs and console myself that as pilots we might be cautious, good fathers and drinking buddies but if experienced guys have oopsies then we are all vulnerable to make wrong split decisions and should keep trying to improve but learn from other's mistakes.

[John Boucher]

Jamie

You make extremely valid points in your post above.... but then so have all the posters on this thread.

Just on the participation of microlight accidents. We have nominated from the regions, capable members for the assistance to CAA in the accident investigation process. Whether they will use them on a consistent manner remains to be seen. As ARO we should be involved!!!! CAA have in the past used from the fraternity but not on all accidents and if their input is considered well, that is debatable....

I doubt Mike has the time to assist...

[Africa]

Good to Know that John. Ja I used Mikes name as an example lol, this thread is why I LOVE microlighters. I still have my head