Very Disappointed with the flying community

[Vatso]

Hi All,

Sorry but I think this post needs to be done

there was a microlight accident where 2 people lost there lives and there have been many people sending there condolences which I think is very nice.

BUT there is the other side where people are fighting with each other and having comments on what happened and if the pilot made a mistake and if he was hot gunning it????

The truth of it is there are 2 people who have lost their lives with family and friends I am sure very much hurting now

I do not know these people and feel very sorry for the family and friends left behind and hope that if ever this was to happen to me there were not a lot of people posting some of the stuff they are......

how would you feel if your family were to read the posts you post about the pilot and or what happened? - I am not aware of anyone who wants to die in a plane crash and am sure the pilot tried everything in his power to land safely!!! and it's easy from the side lines to have comments on what happened and what should have been done!!!!

I ask that everyone that replies on such a thread to think about what they saying and how they would feel if there family would have to read what is being said!!!

[Bundy]

Hi Vatso,

This thread will prob just end up in an argument. I dont think there is any one of us that does not feel some sort of loss when one of our Aviators loses their life doing what we all love so much. These are always sensitive subjects, especially so when fatalities have occured. It is important to pay respect to others, but equally important to learn. This post by Nugpot says it all for me...

"The Academy is there for those with the stomach for it to discuss accidents and learn from them. If you do not fit into this category, please avoid posting your disgust. It creates noise that detracts from the goals of this forum.

Speculation does not have to be correct to enable learning to take place. One of the most important learning experiences in my pretty long flying career was in a pub imediately after the fatal accident of a buddy. We had the cause all wrong that night, but the discussion that night had such a profound effect on me that more than 20 years later it still influences my decision making processes.

I see the Academy as an online version of that pub, and I post here what would have been said in that pub. If a pilot has a reputation as inept or as a risk taker, that reputation should be part of any discussion about accidents or incidents which they were involved in, because in 99.9% of cases, those behaviors or lack of skill played a large role.

I suggest to the serial complainers (about our pilot error speculation) to take a small history tour through the past threads in the Academy and see how often the comments which drew the greatest howls of derision were correct.

To be completely honest, I don't care about the reputation of a deceased pilot or how you think his family will feel if I point out his errors and/or risky behavior. Mostly, his family is grieving and nothing I can do or say can make them feel worse. There is no worse than a deceased loved one, so please spare me your surrogate disgust, delivered from your high horse.

In some cases, the deceased were passengers, whose only mistake was trusting the wrong person with their lives. My mission on this forum is to illuminate those behaviors and personalities which are indicators of unsafe aviators, so that future passengers might be saved. Thousands of lives have been saved because professional pilots are very honest and direct about the failures of colleagues in accidents and in implementing strategies to make up for those failures. CRM is the result of accidents caused by personality errors and it has a hugely positive safety influence.

I am so tired of the dramatic exit (so beautifully executed by Oldflyboy above) and of the same old argument every time that a fatal accident is discussed. The person is dead. He is incapable of caring about his reputation. Whether he was a nice guy or not is not important. If there was a chance that he screwed up and that the accident could have been avoided, we should immediately bring that point to the fore so that others can learn from it.

If there are still pilots out there who think that aviation is a forgiving environment where nice guys are magically protected from making large errors which kill them and others, they should immediately hand their licenses back to the CAA."

[Dish]

Those that grieve for the loss of the pilot and pax will grieve whether we have a thread or not. The point of the thread in question and certainly the forum is to promote learning, safe flying and most of all try and prevent someone else from making a similar mistake. Active and sometimes heated debate does not mean we do not respect or sympathise with the families, we do however seek to understand the events of the tradegy to avoid them being duplicated. History is pointless if were not going to learn from it.
Bundy - That Nugpots one sharp lad. Very well put and about sums it up completely.

[Vatso]

I think learning is a great idea
One should respect the dead and not post on public forums information about an incident that is not accurate that is just not fair on the person that can no longer defend themselves and hope that the families do it on their behalf.

It's sad to think we have no respect for one another and that we can tear about a persons character if they crash no matter the reasons.

Maybe the safety officers of CAA, Raasa and Misasa should be putting up some posts about safety and past incidents so we can learn and base them on facts?

[John.com]

I think learning is a great idea
One should respect the dead and not post on public forums information about an incident that is not accurate that is just not fair on the person that can no longer defend themselves and hope that the families do it on their behalf.

It's sad to think we have no respect for one another and that we can tear about a persons character if they crash no matter the reasons.

Maybe the safety officers of CAA, Raasa and Misasa should be putting up some posts about safety and past incidents so we can learn and base them on facts?

Vatso, please re-read Bundy's post and then make the decision whether to read these posts or to stay off the forum. Your choice.

We absolutely respect our departed aviator but we will continue to speculate and discuss every accident and incident. That is how we learn.

[Vatso]

How does one learn from speculation and miss information?

and I hear this forum loud and clear & do not participate in any case & understand the closed minded group which this forum would be

[skybound®]

Maybe the safety officers of CAA, Raasa and Misasa should be putting up some posts about safety and past incidents so we can learn and base them on facts?

Vatso, take a little time and go and read some of the official accident reports on the CAA website. For most, they will regurgitate only the exact facts - and yes they will most certainly answer the question as to WHAT happened - ie They may say - aircraft impacted ground at 45 degrees and post impact fire ensued. The bit it hardly ever answer is WHY it happened. For instance they may state - engine ran normally after accident - but will not state it it was Fuel contamination or Carb Icing that led to the engine failure. In absence of absolutes, speculation is the only avenue left.

[John.com]

How does one learn from speculation and miss information?

Very simple Vatso! It is through this very speculation and the ensuing discussion that the possible causes and scenarios are narrowed down to 'probable causes'. And it is through this process we get to learn.

THAT is the power of this forum, but only for those that are open-minded enough to understand, contribute and learn from the process!

[John Boucher]

The sad thing is VATSO.... we have all been touched by the loss of a good friend behind the sticks of an aeroplane. I remember my good friend crashing at the end of Saldanha airfield because he failed to act on the signs and feedback his aircraft was giving him. Though we may disagree on certain comments in the accident thrashing threads and at times may become a tad irritated with each other the one fact remains - we want to know what happened. Why... WE WANT LEARN, not only for closure but not to make the same mistake (if any) or be armed with the knowledge to identify the conditions and do the right thing.

We are not insensitive to the loss, on the contrary - we are perturbed and angry about it. We shouldn't lose any AVIATOR or PAX but that is in a perfect world!

We have to be realistic about it all. The media shall remain the media. How many times have "tweets" gone into cyberspace and the media reports it as fact. One just has to look at the "Micros down Piet Retief" thread and see how easily things get misconstrued only for some form of sanity or truth prevailing in the end. If we don't thrash it through, it will just pass by the wayside and be forgotten only to happen.

I was really impressed with Nug's post....

[Splinter]

This is funny! I actually agree with all parties here.

I understand the point VATSO is making, but speculating about what could or should have happened is where we learn.
I think the solution is simple. Report the accident under the accident and incidents topics and give the fallen pilot the honor he deserves! Let his family read all the good things people have to say about their loved one and give them a chance to heal.
If you want the crash to become a learning experience just start a discussion under training talk referring to the crash and learn from it there.....

m2c

[John Boucher]

I personally think the speculation, thrashing it through, then finally links to the actual accident report stay under the thread of Accident Reports and linked to that accident.

The accident thread should also only be viewable by registered members and not as it is now...

The condolences and sympathies off to hangar talk or even better still, a Condolences Board Item of it's own?

[Splinter]

Does not matter how they do it, just separate the condolences from the "learning" and your problem is history but I also think the accident section should be for members only.

[Blue Max]

That Nugpots one sharp lad. Very well put and about sums it up completely

Het iemand al vir Nug's n Bell's gegooi ?????

[Tailspin]

That Nugpots one sharp lad. Very well put and about sums it up completely

Het iemand al vir Nug's n Bell's gegooi ?????

Eish Blue Max

I have tried but it keeps just bouncing off my screen, then i got to wipe the mess of my Table

[John Boucher]

Tailspin... can you run the limiting access to the Accident thread past the mods please?