Real cost of ownership

[bomskok]

Hi Everyone

I have a few questions regarding aircraft ownership. (I'm on a PPL but looking for something in the lines of a BB/KF, motorglider,cubby. i.e. definite 3-axis.) if anyone knows of answers already posted, please point me there. And please forgive me if some of the questions seem ignorant/silly.

1. Firstly, let's assume I've already had a chance to fly one of the above, and decided one which one, how do you go about financing it? What do they (banks?) need for security, deposit amount etc.? For argument's sake let's take the value at between R150k and R250k. Is it the same as financing a car or similar asset?

2. What are the costs in terms of hangarage. Let's assume it needs to be kept indoors. Do you pay monthly/annually? Assuming ideally Pretoria/Midrand area for hangarage. How much can you expect to pay?

3. Fuel - Can you run most of the engines on mogas or do you have to use avgas? Again, forgive my ignorance, but I'm sure I read somewhere that some engines actually prefer mogas, is this true? And will this bring the hourly cost down if you use mogas?

4. I believe the maintenance "dos&don'ts" can be looked up in the CAA's AIP/AICs so that one has been answered in the meantime!

5. Insurance - how is this calculated - hull value, typical hours flown p/a, pilot's TT?

So to sum up. I'd love to own a plane (who wouldn't !) and maybe I can afford one, maybe not. I'm sure someone must have made some calculations to get down to the true cost of what all this adds up to. I know for a fact that buying it is only the beginning as a friend of mine who bought a C182 found out. The maintenance easily 'outperforms' the initial capital outlay!(and it's not even giving him problems...! I know it's not fair to compare the BB and cubby types to a C182 but it's pointless having the money to buy the monster and only finding out 6 months down the line that you've spent more than that on fuel/maintenance...

Thanks for your input.

[Stephan van Tonder]

1) IF you finance it through a bank the very first thing they will require of you is to have fully comrehensive insurance - THAT might cost you as much as your finance payment. To finance it they pretty much need the same as for any other asset/car - Wesbank and standard bank has specialist people for aircraft. Here is standard's web area and the other banks will ask you for pretty much the same papers and requirements. http://www.standardbank.co.za/SBIC/Fron ... _0,00.html

2) Hangarage - work on +-R900 - R1200 per month.

3) Depending on the engine but most run mogas. Roatx 912 prefers 95 octane mogas.

4) Currently pretty much just about nothing you can DIY - has to be signed out by an AP anyway if you do DIY.

5) Yes a combination of hull value + considered against the type of flying you do and hours/pilot experience level. Work on anything from 5 to 12% of hull per year/12 = monthly payment so on a R400000 aircraft R4000 p/m worst case.

So generally - finance it through your bond. Take out ground cover insurance which is real cheap - take out 3rd party from Aeroclub/Misasa and pray you never prang it while you fly....

[bomskok]

Thanks for that Stephan. I thought you were going to say: " If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it anyway!"

One thing I forgot to ask as well is how feasible/realistic is it to hire and fly let's say a bushbaby or cubby.

I live in Centurion and I've heard of Aero57, which I'm told is quite close to me, not sure where it is exactly though and if such airfields in the area offer hire&fly. I'm guessing, and it's a big guess, that it depends on what type of CofA the aircraft is issued with?

I know in the UK microlight hire&fly was not allowed, but that might have changed as I lost track of the debate at some point.

Cheers

[justin.schoeman]

5) Yes a combination of hull value + considered against the type of flying you do and hours/pilot experience level. Work on anything from 5 to 12% of hull per year/12 = monthly payment so on a R400000 aircraft R4000 p/m worst case.

Interesting. The highest quote I have received is 3.5%. Don't know if it makes a difference that I am PPL, and registering the plane as a light aircraft?

[Stephan van Tonder]

Eish - I have sliced and diced this thing anyway you can think of and I'm flying by using the School's airplane. But it's not hire and fly - I basically pay for instruction time still even though he is basically relaxing now. There is basically no Hire&Fly of LSA /microlight aircraft in SA in the same sense as you get on the big types simply because the insurance is so ridiculous that the owners do not find it worth while. Nothing in the Regs that doesn't allow it.
Basically I cannot afford an aircraft right now either so I know exactly what you asked and keep going over and over it to find a way of being able to afford it.

Oh the one thing you could possibly look at is part ownership. There is a bushbaby at Rhino that is looking for a part owner currently - look at the for sale section. BUT it has it's own problems if both the partners don't look after the aircraft the same way.....

[Stephan van Tonder]

Justin - yes the insurance discriminate heavily against the microlight community - the result is that less and less guy take out insurance which means it becoems more expensive - which mean less guys take out - you get the idea. If you have a couple of 100 hours to your name it also comes down but try and take it out with a license that is still hot from the printer...

[Tracer]

Thanks for that Stephan. I thought you were going to say: " If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it anyway!"

One thing I forgot to ask as well is how feasible/realistic is it to hire and fly let's say a bushbaby or cubby.

I live in Centurion and I've heard of Aero57, which I'm told is quite close to me, not sure where it is exactly though and if such airfields in the area offer hire&fly. I'm guessing, and it's a big guess, that it depends on what type of CofA the aircraft is issued with?

I know in the UK microlight hire&fly was not allowed, but that might have changed as I lost track of the debate at some point.

Cheers

I trained at Aero57. The airfield is mainly a training field with very limited hangar space (mainly just the school planes and CFI's personal aerie). Currently there are no 3-axiz microlights there, although the CFI is rated to train on certain 3-axis planes.

I hangar at Inwge, which is down the road from Aero57. There are mostly trikes there, with 3 3-axis planes. All the aircraft are privately owned and I know of no-one there offreing H&F.

Sorry, I know it is not what you wanted to hear.

Although I do remember reading on here sometime ago that Rhino park has a Jabiru SP, they offer for H&F, may be worth checking out!

[gasguzzler]

When it comes to insurance you really have to shop around. I have my Yak18t insured and the rate is R15,451-00 per anum for an agreed amount of R450,000-00. Excess is R12,500-00 and at the time of taking out this policy I had only 235hrs and 20 hrs on type.
Same goes for car insurance I insured my car for only R 29,830-00 per anum and thats cheap for a 1,9m car. P.M. me if you need some contact details for my brokers.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Same goes for car insurance I insured my car for only R 29,830-00 per anum and thats cheap for a 1,9m car. P.M. me if you need some contact details for my brokers.

Post pics of the car...

[RV4ker (RIP)]

5) Yes a combination of hull value + considered against the type of flying you do and hours/pilot experience level. Work on anything from 5 to 12% of hull per year/12 = monthly payment so on a R400000 aircraft R4000 p/m worst case.

Interesting. The highest quote I have received is 3.5%. Don't know if it makes a difference that I am PPL, and registering the plane as a light aircraft?

I stripped my moer when my rate went from 1.6% to 1.81% this year. by way of EG. Quotes I got ranged from 4% to as low as 1.81%. Some like NTCA, some don't. Don't mention MICROLIGHT at all. Say Non Type Certified aircraft.... When they ask, tell them that anything for which a type certificate has not been issued is a NTCA. Anything from hang glider, weight shift (not MICROLIGHT), gyro copter, to Jet and everything in between is lumped together in NTCA. They all planes. Resale values also help in assessing "value" although I have not had same problem in this dept as for eg trying to get insuance for my beach buggy...(which is also NTCA )

SHOP AROUND. I got rate on cubby for H&F at 9%, which is huge, so what we did was to get excess insurance of R40K and that brought the rate down hugely. If you find owner that is willing to let you loose on his baby then drop me a line. I got excellent rate to fly an aerie (on which I had only convex time) from CT to Jhb. The insuance company has to assess the risk. Easier you make it for them the better they can assess the risk and usually the better the rate...

Tailies are more expensive than landomatics..., although in saying that the RV is 1% "cheaper" than the 182RG, I assume since it has RG? Insurance is not with same company and not my decision....

As a thumbsuck figure the cost of ownership on avg 100hrs a year is ROUGHLY = to 3x the fuel burn per hr.
So if you drive
RV4 which uses roughly 30l an hr at R8.20 a litre you get R738, but I fly more than 100hrs so it comes down to ±650/hr..
Cubby on other hand uses MAX 14l/hr UNLEADED @ R7/l = R294/hr, but I flew it very little so actuals were closer to R350/hr
KRII (I never flew it ), but very similar to the Cubby.
Cheetah 19l/hr @ Unleaded @ R7/l = R399/hr, but it flies (in school) so actuals were closer to R350/hr. The 912 is cheaper per hr I am told? 300hr crank issues on the 582 also pushed the price up a bit. (Gotta love the old VOLLA if you willing to drive behind it...)
C182 uses ±48l/hr @ R8.20 = R1180/hr, but it flew close to 200hrs a year so costs were closer to R760/hr and hull value was only R550K. (Partnership with 4 guys)
C182RG uses ±48l/hr @ R8.20 = R1180/hr, BUT insurance is HUGE and hrs are low, so actual cost is close to R2500/hr (use is less than 30hrs a year and hull value is R1,25bar which skews the graph hugely)
Albat (just for interest sake) 130l/hr @ R8.20 = R3198/hr, but insurance is all of R2'000 a YEAR. (NOT A MISPRINT - SHOP AROUND), so actuals are closer to R1600/hr - THAT IS HALF, but specific to my particular situation....

I have a spreadsheet which details all the costs on all the aeries I have owned or operated, but you can use the above as rough numbers. ALWAYS have a kitty. Things go wrong and cost money to solve. Initial capital is high, but over time fuel & maint will be biggest costs. It is expensive and if you can find a H&F aerie THIS IS BY FAR THE CHEAPEST OPTION EVEN AT DOUBLE RATE YOU FLY YOUR OWN FOR UNLESS YOU FLY HUGE HRS....

H&F under part 96 is possible, but as mentioned above not popular due to costs.

Partnerships help reduce costs, but they bring their own problems. Mostly Politics... Choose wisely, but even politics are worth it vs no flying at all...

ENJOY...

PS
I have sold my Cubby, but I still think that these aeries present a huge opportunity for pvt ownership. Cheap simple and huge amounts of fun.... Just my 2c.

PPS
If you can find a H&F 2 seater and you fly alone a lot, why not look at a Teenie, VP1, KR etc.

[KFA]

RV is about correct. Most LSA types BB, Cheetah,Cubby etc should be R350/hr or less depending on fuel burn and hr's flown per year.

[Stephan van Tonder]

Cheetah we use is 912S engined and uses between 10 and 14 l/h.

[bomskok]

Thanks for all the input guys.

My wife and I are just back from a 9 year stint in the UK so I need some time to settle in and see how things work out as I've completely lost touch with the Randzz. (and if one more person hints at the fact that "you're now loaded with pounds", I'll go ! you've no idea how expensive moving back here is... )

I'll def consider part ownership if I can find the right person & aircraft. I knew a guy in my flying club at Biggin Hill that shared a Europa with another bloke and it worked out fairly well for him. But as you say politics started playing a role when it came to the regular maintenance jobbies to keep the plane going smoothly....

From what it sounds like cost wise, I may just as well consider a C150/152 type. Even a Luscombe/Taylorcraft would be a dream since I'm on a PPL. But I guess you'll loose the ability to do some maint work yourself. Swings and roundabouts I guess. Not too sure if I'll enjoy flying a single seater, I enjoy company while flying and my wife loves flying as well. Never tried it so maybe I'll look at that at some point if I want to build hours for some reason.

For now I'll cont. doing H&F as I can get a 150 Aerobat at FAGC for about R750 p/h. But to be honest I'm not too crazy about flying from GC. But hey...

I've also heard of a flying club at Swartkops. Anyone have any info or contact numbers for them?

Thanks again for the feedback.

[Low Level]

If the prices still scare you, there are other options as well. I saw 3-axis selling for R 80 000 to R 100 000, like the Streak shadow. Hangarage at the smaller fields you can get away with R 500 pm.

Running costs will most propably be the same as discussed - same engines.

Rudix - help out here.

If you wanna fly - there are many plans to be made.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Thanks for all the input guys.
From what it sounds like cost wise, I may just as well consider a C150/152 type. Even a Luscombe/Taylorcraft would be a dream since I'm on a PPL.

The 152 and Lushie will be far more Expensive. The beauty of NTCA used to be cost the effective allure. Jab, Cheetah & Cubby can lift and do what a 152 can do at a fraction of the price and all available with a little wheel Aerobat excluded...

PS
Just out of interest
Why don't you like flying out of FAGC. I flew out of there for many years and also got my license there. If management were not so I would still be there.... Nice little airport. Few delays and centrally located.